Question: what is the grading criteria ... ???Punk said:
I.e., OK=4.0, (OK)= 3.0, etc., etc. ???
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I.e., OK=4.0, (OK)= 3.0, etc., etc. ???
Well .... that's what I thought. Grading and all ... so how is it that a "2.9-2.98" is "Santa Claus" or "unheard of" ... ??? (reference the grading discussion in above posts)Punk said:
Between a 2.75 and 3.0 used to be average, with both the T-2 and TA-4. Several guys in my class and the classes on either side of mine scored 3.0-3.5 or so. When I was waving STUDs in TW-3 ... the "good" guys got @ 3.3. Not "unheard of" at all ...
.... and lest you think otherwise --- Santa Claus don't live here.
... I'm Buddhist.
Chubby
Active Member
FNAEB=Field Naval Aviation Evaluation Board (IE-You 'F'ed up and have to go to the principle's office)Recidivist said:
http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14233 See #6 and 7
MC=Mission Commander
It seems to me that in Kingsville...no matter if you throw a (HCDAW) 3-wire pass that you will never get the OK....top hooks down there average around a 2.7. Thats what I got at least. Its like a (OK) pass is the best you can do no matter what, a student rite-of-passage thing..maybe. I think its the LSOs riggin' the grades to ensure the bets are won and their liquor cabinets are full of the finest!!
Regardless, we all qualled and it was a blast.
Regardless, we all qualled and it was a blast.
A4sForever said:Well .... that's what I thought. Grading and all ... so how is it that a "2.9-2.98" is "Santa Claus" or "unheard of" ... ??? (reference the grading discussion in above posts)
Between a 2.75 and 3.0 used to be average, with both the T-2 and TA-4. Several guys in my class and the classes on either side of mine scored 3.0-3.5 or so. When I was waving STUDs in TW-3 ... the "good" guys got @ 3.3. Not "unheard of" at all ...
.... and lest you think otherwise --- Santa Claus don't live here.
Like I said, its unheard of down in Kingsville. Anything above a 2.7 almost guarantees you Top Hook. I would say anything between 2.65 to 2.45 is average in Kingsville these days. Above a 2.8 happens every other boat (if not more) for TW-2. It just happens we had two guys above 2.8 (out of 30) on my boat. I got a NO GRADE for an otherwise (OK) pass for a 19 sec groove length. Our LSO's even told us we would be graded harder on those two days then in any other time in our boat careers. Sounds like Kingsville has a different philosphy on the initial CQ grading.
(HCDAW) 3 wire should be an OK pass ... everything else being equal, as that is the purpose of the (little) comment. Minor (little) deviations about the glideslope. HCDAW would be a (OK), as you either got such a high start you couldn't really correct early in the pass or you are --- "lazy" --- and just accepted a HCDAW because ... well .... because you're lazy. A couple of those at the BOAT and no positive response to radio "counseling" or corrections and it's a trip to the beach to think about the error of your ways.brd2881 said:It seems to me that in Kingsville...no matter if you throw a (HCDAW) 3-wire pass that you will never get the OK.......... I think its the LSOs riggin' the grades to ensure the bets are won and their liquor cabinets are full of the finest!!
The LSO's that I had ALL graded us realistically --- we had to work hard 'cause we were green and BOAT-stupid. When I started waving STUDs many years later --- I graded them realistically -- not necessarily "Fleet" --- sometime that's even EASIER. Wink, nod, so on and so forth .... :icon_wink
As a STUD, the LSO has to get your attention and make you a believer. Sooner rather than later --- for your health.
I guess I was just trying to throw out the ideal pass "mantra" with cresting ball on the IFLOS lens.... I would be willing to bet a cresting ball on the IFLOS that earns you a (HCDAW) 3 wire would be nearly equivalent to a centered ball pass to 3 wire on the FLOS lens because of lens widths. I am no expert with my green-BOAT requisite 14 passes...but just supposing...BTW I thought very highly of my LSOs and learned a great deal so I became a "BELIEVER".
I am no expert with my green-BOAT requisite 14 passes...but just supposing...BTW I thought very highly of my LSOs and learned a great deal so I became a "BELIEVER".
^ Nope, without the benefit of being there --- I think you are calling it 4.0
Mark one OK for bird ....
And I even know a few Marine LSO's ...
Mark one OK for bird ....
And I even know a few Marine LSO's ...
I'll chime in to support brd2881 and Punk. I'm no salt, but in my year+ at K-ville, I've never heard of anyone with an average starting with a 3.A4sForever said:
I always thought that was because we just suck more than fleet guys, but I've come to believe that there is a little bit of a training command "handicap" thrown in there.
It really doesn't matter to me though. 2.51 or 2.99, I'm just glad I got the chance to go out there!
Haven't been anywhere near a gray boat yet, but I'll chime in to support what the recently winged guys have said. Going through midstage FCLP, our LSOs basically told us there was probably no way we could get an OK pass due to our being so green that any such passes were likely more luck than skilled finessing of the ball. Taking that into consideration, the (OK) was about as good as we could get.
I have overheard another LSO give a couple OKs during pre-boat field CQs, so maybe that's an individual quirk of the guys waving us. And I have had one non-LSO IP tell me during a pattern hop that (HCDAW) was essentially his idea of the "perfect pass."
I have overheard another LSO give a couple OKs during pre-boat field CQs, so maybe that's an individual quirk of the guys waving us. And I have had one non-LSO IP tell me during a pattern hop that (HCDAW) was essentially his idea of the "perfect pass."
The Stinkster said:
Ok stinky you put out some pretty good bait so i'll bite
The only point I will offer up for consideration is this....The E2/C2 guys get half the the hops in advanced and are still held to the same standard. I was doing approaches for the first time on REVIEW STAGE rides....is it any wonder E2/C2 guys dont come out of intermediate with 60+ NSS. The prop guys get entire flights dedicated to tacan or ILS approaches. I probably did 5 ILS approaches during my entire time (I will have to check my log book but that is a reasonable guess.) E2/C2 guys are the ******* children in every stage of training. Intermediate.....you guys are going to advanced, you dont need as much Instrument time. Advanced....you guys had instrument time in intermediate, you dont need as much stick time in the jet etc, etc. The learning curve is steep. Just something to consider.
[continued slight course correction/threadjack]nittany03 said:
Obviously, I take you guys at your word. I don't doubt for a minute the veracity of what you collectively say about the grading criteria being laid on STUDs these days.
My take?? It is 100% BULLSH!T, it's WRONG, and your LSO's are NOT doing you-all a favor. You teach and grade the boys according to "reality". The boys need to know what the standards are, what an OK looks like, and what is acceptable and what is not.
It's the BOAT --- not a college course --- and you are MEN --- not kids, anymore. ... if anything, as I alluded to earlier, you might be observing the pattern a little "tighter" with STUDs than with Fleet Aviators --- because you know who you are working with at the ship on cruise and know what to expect, as a result. But that is not the case in the TRACOM where people are green and come and go on a monthly basis. You have to run a "tighter" ship in the TRACOM in most cases.
But you also have to have a meaningful over all grading standard. Consistency. Something the STUDs can count on. Not an artificial grading standard based on a TRACOM "handicap". You have to teach 'em how to do it right and reward them accordingly. Anything less is BULLSH!T!!!
In other words ... look at a bell-shaped curve. That's probably how the STUDs are going to fall out on the BOAT grades. Some are Blue Angels, some are plumbers -- and may not make it; and MOST fall under the big part of the bell. Grade 'em accordingly. This ain't a college fraternity where you have to get a (OK) to pay your dues or go through some kind of initiation. It's the real thing and carrier pilots, whether STUDs or Fleet, are all big boys and should be graded fairly.
What the hell am I -- the TRACOM LSO -- teaching CQ for anyway??? Myself?? Some artificial TRACOM STUD grading scale?? Bottles of booze??? No personalities. No artificial handicaps. Not a chance .... BULLSH!T !!! FLY THE BALL .... !!!
So what if the STUD is "green" and he would be "just lucky" to fly an OK ??? So Fvcking What !!! HEY !!! .... Maybe .... he actually did it !!??!! Teach 'em the right way and what the passes --- all of 'em --- look like by grading accurately and grading what "they" actually fly --- maybe "they" will actually learn something !!!
Using the weak, weak TRACOM LSO approach described by you: what are you -- the TRACOM LSO --- going to do if the STUD actually FLIES AN OK PASS ??? WHAT IF HE FLIES 6 OK PASSES IN A ROW ??? GIVE HIM/HER A FAIR ??? BULLSH!T!!
I'm gonna be really honest with you-all. I was a good LSO ... in fact, I was one of the best LSO's I ever saw. Don't take my word for it --- many others offered this judgement and I was evaluated accordingly ..... so why even mention it??? 'Cause I want to impress upon you that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to training Aviators --- new and used --- on how to "do it" on the BOAT. I was heading for AirPac LSO when the siren song of the airlines and a b!tchy ex-wife overrode what I really wanted to do in my heart --- stay in and keep on keeping on with the pickle @ the blunt end of USS BOAT.
End of sermon. End of lesson. I feel better now ....
.... excuse me for a moment. I have to go to the head.
[threadjack ... OUT]
When I was in K-rock our civilian student control officer, we'll call her "Pat", said that in her twelve years there had been two and only two Marine Attrites given pipeline transfers. One was due to ACM air sickness (how did he get through Tac Form?), and the other due to an ACM injury that pretty much would permanently limit him to no more than 3-4 G's. The lucky Marine who received the pipeline transfer did not DQ at the boat twice, but he did get all of his downs in Phase II. He is a good friend of mine and yes, to his credit he was sort of drafted into jets with a mediocre NSS but still above 52 (Marine Cutoff). I'm not sure how much that had to do with his getting the transfer, but it may have been a factor.
Why did this Marine get a transfer when so many others didn't? Our senior Marine (Hornet bubba) was a great leader who made it his personal mission to try to change what had shafted so many good Marines before. He cited the Navy's success with jet attrites who had gone on to be #1 in helos and props from just the 3 years that he was there. He also noted many of them didn't even make it to phase II. He got the Matsg colonel on board and sent it up the chain. DENIED....And why? In his words, "because certain senior aviators in the other communities see it as recycling our trash through them and that hurts their ego." Are you kidding me? Ego comes before fleet capability and readiness?
Wait kittyfish, I thought you said the Good Senior Marine got his stud a pipeline transfer? He did, and I'm going to tell you how if you have a secret clearence, read on. He went to the Marine Corps little talked about but very powerful: Harrier Mafia. Seems if you fly that warbeast you know ever other warrior that does same as well as everyone he knows, his kids, pets, ect... I even think they share wives, but I digress. Anyway, the mafia came through and worked a six degrees of "who do I know in Headquarters Marine Corps" to get him a pipeline transition. This Marine even got to choose. He chose C-130's, is kicking ass, and will be a great asset to that community.
Jet guys get a lot of ****e for having inflated egos. Much of that ****e is deserved, you should hear the grief I get for cruising junior colleges at night in my flightsuit and sunglasses looking for any hot girls who have seen Top Gun. It's ludicrazy! That being said, if grades are any sort of indicator jet studs have already demonstrated "above average" potential to be a pilot in some airframe. Not giving them a chance in your community (esp. if they attrited for something TACAIR specific) and labeling them recycled trash to help ones own ego is shortsighted and not in the best interest of the Navy/Marine Corps. Feel free to make fun of them for talking with their hands, and always using callsigns whatever, but in the end it is one team/one fight. How do I know this? I'm a jet pilot, I know everything. END RANT.....
Why did this Marine get a transfer when so many others didn't? Our senior Marine (Hornet bubba) was a great leader who made it his personal mission to try to change what had shafted so many good Marines before. He cited the Navy's success with jet attrites who had gone on to be #1 in helos and props from just the 3 years that he was there. He also noted many of them didn't even make it to phase II. He got the Matsg colonel on board and sent it up the chain. DENIED....And why? In his words, "because certain senior aviators in the other communities see it as recycling our trash through them and that hurts their ego." Are you kidding me? Ego comes before fleet capability and readiness?
Wait kittyfish, I thought you said the Good Senior Marine got his stud a pipeline transfer? He did, and I'm going to tell you how if you have a secret clearence, read on. He went to the Marine Corps little talked about but very powerful: Harrier Mafia. Seems if you fly that warbeast you know ever other warrior that does same as well as everyone he knows, his kids, pets, ect... I even think they share wives, but I digress. Anyway, the mafia came through and worked a six degrees of "who do I know in Headquarters Marine Corps" to get him a pipeline transition. This Marine even got to choose. He chose C-130's, is kicking ass, and will be a great asset to that community.
Jet guys get a lot of ****e for having inflated egos. Much of that ****e is deserved, you should hear the grief I get for cruising junior colleges at night in my flightsuit and sunglasses looking for any hot girls who have seen Top Gun. It's ludicrazy! That being said, if grades are any sort of indicator jet studs have already demonstrated "above average" potential to be a pilot in some airframe. Not giving them a chance in your community (esp. if they attrited for something TACAIR specific) and labeling them recycled trash to help ones own ego is shortsighted and not in the best interest of the Navy/Marine Corps. Feel free to make fun of them for talking with their hands, and always using callsigns whatever, but in the end it is one team/one fight. How do I know this? I'm a jet pilot, I know everything. END RANT.....