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Advanced Attrites
- Thread starter Dorkman
- Start date
When I was instructing in the TRACOM 
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The Marines had an interesting twist on Advanced attrites. When a prospective young Marine Air STUD would get the advanced jet "boot" ... they would usually transfer him over to the helo pipeline. It happened many times --- it was almost de rigueur in those days. It was interesting to me in the sense that instead of having the opportunity to kill only one at a time --- he would now have the opportunity to kill ... oh, say .... 30 at once ???
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The Marines had an interesting twist on Advanced attrites. When a prospective young Marine Air STUD would get the advanced jet "boot" ... they would usually transfer him over to the helo pipeline. It happened many times --- it was almost de rigueur in those days. It was interesting to me in the sense that instead of having the opportunity to kill only one at a time --- he would now have the opportunity to kill ... oh, say .... 30 at once ???
Now THAT'S rep points.A4sForever said:When I was instructing in the TRACOM
The Marines had an interesting twist on Advanced attrites. When a prospective young Marine Air STUD would get the advanced jet "boot" ... they would usually transfer him over to the helo pipeline. It happened many times --- it was almost de rigueur in those days. It was interesting to me in the sense that instead of having the opportunity to kill only one at a time --- he would now have the opportunity to kill ... oh, say .... 30 at once ???
Current redes for Advanced attrites is as follows:
1)Attrite from strike: Depends on what you attrite for. IF it is a DQ at the boat issue, then you will be looked at for transition to another pipeline if the rest of your performance was pretty solid and you are not a dirtbag. If it was in a different phase, you MAY be looked at for a trans to E2/C2 if you qual at the boat but it is very rare and unlikely. Other pipelines don't take you if you attrite for reasons other than the boat.
2)props: There are NO pipeline transitions from attrite in prop advanced. Current numbers run anywhere from 6 to 12% attrition ratio. Attrite from here and your bigger worry is staying in the Navy at all. The vast majority are thanked for their service and are looking for a civilian job. If you have a special skill (useful engineering degree, etc) you may get to stay in to make use of it for the Navy, but not always. Transitions to another community (SWO, etc) are now VERY rare. Depending on loading there is sometimes the option to apply for an NFO transition, but also VERY rare and your whole package is sent to the NFO wing for review and it requires recommendation letters from your attriting command, etc. Some guys try to get into intel, etc, but again, VERY rare and not to be expected. Like I said, most guys are done with the Navy at that point. My understanding is that the HT scenario is much the same, but I have no first-hand experience with that.
Hope that helps.
1)Attrite from strike: Depends on what you attrite for. IF it is a DQ at the boat issue, then you will be looked at for transition to another pipeline if the rest of your performance was pretty solid and you are not a dirtbag. If it was in a different phase, you MAY be looked at for a trans to E2/C2 if you qual at the boat but it is very rare and unlikely. Other pipelines don't take you if you attrite for reasons other than the boat.
2)props: There are NO pipeline transitions from attrite in prop advanced. Current numbers run anywhere from 6 to 12% attrition ratio. Attrite from here and your bigger worry is staying in the Navy at all. The vast majority are thanked for their service and are looking for a civilian job. If you have a special skill (useful engineering degree, etc) you may get to stay in to make use of it for the Navy, but not always. Transitions to another community (SWO, etc) are now VERY rare. Depending on loading there is sometimes the option to apply for an NFO transition, but also VERY rare and your whole package is sent to the NFO wing for review and it requires recommendation letters from your attriting command, etc. Some guys try to get into intel, etc, but again, VERY rare and not to be expected. Like I said, most guys are done with the Navy at that point. My understanding is that the HT scenario is much the same, but I have no first-hand experience with that.
Hope that helps.
I'm not the expert here but I'm pretty sure that unless you have a special circumstance they are not going to transition you to another plaform. Waste of money for the military. I KNOW if you are a Marine it def won't happen. It's pretty rare that someone actually HATES a their platform and as far as attrition ... it happens but for the most part if you want it and you're a hard worker you'll be fine. Just try and make an educated decision. Talk to IPs in your sqdn about the different communities to get an idea of where u think you'd fit in and accel (i.e. don't pick jets just cause they seem "cool", learn about what they do, how often they deploy, the lifestyle of the community, etc.)
Peace,
-Spin
Peace,
-Spin
Spin said:
I worked Marine stucon for an HT. My experience is not current as in the last couple months, but not old man history, either. We had one jet guy get reassigned to HTs from the FAM stage in Strike. We had at least 1 USN and 1 USMC get helos after not completing CQs. In the special circumstance category, we had a WM make it all the way through Strike, then get anthropomorphically DQ'ed at the FRS, the reassigned to HTs (several flt surgeons' heads should have rolled for that one). Talking to the Navy Maritime guys, they told me they took several stray dogs from Strike. Marine props did not, because that's such a small community to begin with.
Anyway, I don't like anyone other than the "special circumstance" category or MAYBE CQ downs getting reassigned to another aviation pipeline. For the special circ. guys--sure, weird things happen. CQs I'd let go, because it's a specialized skill that some otherwise good pilots don't have the knack for. Anyone who fails otherwise, tough. You swung and missed. Props and helos can't be the recycling bin for Strike's trash.
phrogdriver said:
You mean like bombing or ACM? Sorry, but if someone can't bomb or fight a jet, it hardly means he can't fly a helo. He obviously had the mettle to get jets in the first place (and make it through all the basic flying stages), which is more than I can say for some of the guys we saw in primary who had to have their NSS's artificially inflated just to make the helo cut.
I don't think you should get to keep trying platforms until you find one you don't suck at. If we're going to let people trade, then perhaps a Strike attrite would be better employed as an NFO. That's not a proposal, just a demonstration of how silly the pass-the-trash doctrine can get. The reasons for all switches should be extremely limited.
If someone's primary grades were inflated merely to pass them into Advanced in any platform, that's just wrong, and those instructors were failing in their responsibilities. Same token, though, I know of two contemporaries of mine who fellatiated their last instructors in primary to give 3 above hops IOT make the "jet cut." It's all bad.
If someone's primary grades were inflated merely to pass them into Advanced in any platform, that's just wrong, and those instructors were failing in their responsibilities. Same token, though, I know of two contemporaries of mine who fellatiated their last instructors in primary to give 3 above hops IOT make the "jet cut." It's all bad.
squeeze said:
Wow!!! I am going to have to take some exception to that statement! Not being a helo driver myself, I will say that if I was I would be somewhat offended by the "jet attitude" that statement displayed. In fact, probably anyone on this board that is not a strike guy would take a little offense to that statement, and some of the jet guys here probably cringed when they read it. I would not for a second pretend that ANY flying skill that I have obtained in my career in maritime or as an advanced IP would in ANY way qualify me to fly a helicopter, which takes an entirely unique set of skills and training to fly correctly. I am pretty sure that I would be closer to being able to fly a jet, since the fixed wing an turbine mechanics are much more similar to what I do now.
Also, I think that your argument that by getting jets a person has already proven that he is a superior aviator and by not surviving in the strike pipeline he will obviously have no problems in one of the other more lowly communities that any moron can be good in. (I am getting more annoyed by this thread as I write). I hate to break it to you, but in my time down here in advanced maritime land, i have seen a number of strike attrites come back who got a second chane because they washed at the boat. By you argument they could do EVERYTHING else at a superior level to any other community so they should have come back to Corpus and aced the program and taught the rest of us a thing or two about flying. Sorry to burst your bubble, but many of them had a hard time adjusting in fams alone.
NSS inflation is not the issue (more "hook up" grades are given to get a guy the min qual for strike than for any of the other pipelines). The issue is that any given week a guy with a 70 NSS might get or (GASP) elect to go another route due to needs of the Navy or personal preference, and the next week a bunch of guys with the wonderful Jet min of 50 might all go jets since there were a lot of slots available.
I will end by presenting your argument in a different light. If a guy has a Primary NSS that would have qualified strike, and he goes props and has a hard time in advanced instruments (which is much more challenging than the strike instrument phase) but has done well in all the "basic" flying skills (FAM, Form, etc), then by the same argument presented we should send him to strike where his ONLY shortcoming in an otherwise superior resume would not be a big issue. The same could be spun for an HT guy who ONLY has trouble with auto-rotations. Think about it and try to remember that there are a lot of us who CHOSE communities other than strike, and take some offense to the "we are superior aviators to you" attitude that your post might come off as. I whole-heartedly agree that there are some amazing pilots in the strike community, but passing your trash is no better than passing ours, which we don't, and your trash is not by right a better pilot than those that chose to go to a different pipeline or are succeeding there!
I think it was a generic observation regarding grades...not a dig towards non-jet aviators....Squeeze is saying it takes a good amount of skill to make it to the portion of bombing and ACM in jets....and that may be proportional to the ability of making it through Helo school....bottom line...advanced jets is a pretty demanding pipeline or it wouldn't be so selective. So easy there...
Not trying to start a fight and not in disagreement on the general observation. I think that it is a very demanding pipeline, and that is why it has a minimum. The only problems that I had with the post were so noted, and I have to agree with the sentiment that only in the case of cq probs or special circumstances should there be a look at a pipeline transfer. We deal with the problems of NSS variance, lack of grading stan, week to week selection oddities and deal making from different avenues all the time. The point I was trying to make was that I believe that his statement was a little backhanded to the helo community, although probably not intentional. It is frustrating to have to deal with the attitudes that we get a lot in advanced from the studs who got "boned" and had to go something other than jets, and the tone of the comment touched a chord.
Lips
Registered User
when someone selects jets, naval aviation is saying (theoretically), this is an above average flying student. of that group, there will be people who are at the bottom. if they struggle in jets, from the original assumption, they still were better than most in primary. why are we kicking them to the curb? if their attitude sucked or they were dishonest, thats different. but people who are above average in a wiener who just aren't good enough to hack 300-500 knots no matter how hard they try, doesn't mean they can't hack a helo, or a p-3 doing whatever slow airspeed it does. i don't know who looks at the numbers, i.e. money, but it seems that the marine corps specifically is or was hurting for pilots. hence the navy draft last year. why are we wasting above average primary guys just b/c they couldnt handle faster speeds, single-seat mentality, whatever. put someone next to them and they'd probably be pretty good pilots (or nfos)...not strike trash.
