Just because a guy went jets he/she is not necessarily going to be a better helo pilot. There are guys who don't CQ, go HTs and are barely average pilots in their fleet squadrons. The difference between a 47 and 53 NSS in primary is not some huge gap in abilities. Someone who has attrited at the boat SHOULD do well in advanced. He has 150-200 more hours of military flight experience than the average guy starting the program
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Advanced Attrites
- Thread starter Dorkman
- Start date
Lips
Registered User
ghost said:
i didn't say they'd be better than everyone in helo land. i said, they should be a pretty good pilot. i also wasn't trying to compare a 47 and a 53 NSS. but while we're there, you're right, there isn't much difference between a 47 or a 53. but there are plenty of pilots who selected helos or something else that had WAY less than a 47. if those people have the ability to make a good pilot, then i would argue that a 53 who really tried in jets and didn't make it, stands a good chance of making a good helo pilot, 150-200 extra hours or not (by the way, you don't log nearly that many hours in advanced jets. 150 tops.)
nocal80 said:
Was that supposed to be sarcastic? If so, get off your high horse, smartass.
If that was actually a legitimate question, well, first I'm surprised that you don't know the answer. Yes, HTs have attrites.
squeeze said:
Just for my education, what makes bombing and ACM "more challenging" (if that's the right phrase)? Is it the zen of learning energy management and fighting in 3D space, or is it more mechanical? I'm talking in Advanced where the FTI and curriculum guide rule, not the fleet, where you're starting to get comfortable in your jet.
And just to chum the waters, I believe the NSS for a fleet retread to strike is 40. I don't know whose argument that supports, but I think it's an interesting factoid.
TheStinkster,
Nice strawman you constructed there, but nowhere did I say the person was automatically a better aviator or would make a better helo pilot.
The implication was, that if they can take a subpar primary stud (extreme example 35 nss) and get him through helo-land to the fleet, statistically, there stands a pretty good chance that an above average primary stud could make it in helo land. Nowhere did I say helo pilots are worse pilots or imply that. My helo skills are probably on par with phrogdriver's Harrier skills. Different ballgame.
The point I was trying to make is, Phase I of advanced jets is nothing but basic airwork and fam-ish type flying (fams, instruments, formation) which amounts to around about 100 hrs sim/flight time (WAG). The entire maritime syllabus covers little more than that. Phase II is all the intro to tactical aviation stuff - tacform, bombing, low-level nav, acm, and the boat. For the most part, helos and props don't do any of that (spare me the "100 kts at 100' is fast" argument... it's not 4-500 kts at 2-500'). Why punish an individual who obviously has the skills to be a solid instrument-rated pilot with good form skills because he can't handle the more dynamic stages of flight, especially when other platforms don't even touch on such tactics? It's a waste of training, time, and a ton of money. There is no good reason for the other communities to prevent them from accepting Phase II advanced jet attrites, especially at a time when they are so focused on cutting personnel and funding.
phrogdriver
According to helo buddies of mine (even some on this board), there are/were long periods when no one attrites from HTs. The same friends who say they wing some downright dangerous people. Hell, one of the guys who had an artificially inflated NSS was the first guy to attrite in a LONG time according to a lot of people.
gatordev
I'd say it has to do with all of the above. Energy management, zen, dynamic flying and specific comms, keeping sight, etc... I was no ACM stud (dead average actually), but it's just something you have to 'get,' and it's ridiculous to say that someone who can't accomplish all of the above can't do any other less-dynamic mission.
It all boils down to the fact that other communities can't seem to grasp that what we do is different than what they do. Nobody says we're better or cooler or whatever, it's different, accept it and move on.
/@sshole jet guy
Nice strawman you constructed there, but nowhere did I say the person was automatically a better aviator or would make a better helo pilot.
The implication was, that if they can take a subpar primary stud (extreme example 35 nss) and get him through helo-land to the fleet, statistically, there stands a pretty good chance that an above average primary stud could make it in helo land. Nowhere did I say helo pilots are worse pilots or imply that. My helo skills are probably on par with phrogdriver's Harrier skills. Different ballgame.
The point I was trying to make is, Phase I of advanced jets is nothing but basic airwork and fam-ish type flying (fams, instruments, formation) which amounts to around about 100 hrs sim/flight time (WAG). The entire maritime syllabus covers little more than that. Phase II is all the intro to tactical aviation stuff - tacform, bombing, low-level nav, acm, and the boat. For the most part, helos and props don't do any of that (spare me the "100 kts at 100' is fast" argument... it's not 4-500 kts at 2-500'). Why punish an individual who obviously has the skills to be a solid instrument-rated pilot with good form skills because he can't handle the more dynamic stages of flight, especially when other platforms don't even touch on such tactics? It's a waste of training, time, and a ton of money. There is no good reason for the other communities to prevent them from accepting Phase II advanced jet attrites, especially at a time when they are so focused on cutting personnel and funding.
phrogdriver
According to helo buddies of mine (even some on this board), there are/were long periods when no one attrites from HTs. The same friends who say they wing some downright dangerous people. Hell, one of the guys who had an artificially inflated NSS was the first guy to attrite in a LONG time according to a lot of people.
gatordev
I'd say it has to do with all of the above. Energy management, zen, dynamic flying and specific comms, keeping sight, etc... I was no ACM stud (dead average actually), but it's just something you have to 'get,' and it's ridiculous to say that someone who can't accomplish all of the above can't do any other less-dynamic mission.
It all boils down to the fact that other communities can't seem to grasp that what we do is different than what they do. Nobody says we're better or cooler or whatever, it's different, accept it and move on.
/@sshole jet guy
squeeze said:
Hey, I'm the @sshole jet guy.
The fact is, in primary, everyone is graded. Yes, those grades are based on performing certain tasks, but what does that mean? It shows what kind of abilities you have. What kind of reflexes and coordination. How fast your mind processes things. How easily you adapt to new situations. What makes one pilot better than another at something neither has done before? All of the above. If you don't process info as quickly, or have the coordination, you aren't going to get the higher grades. The NSS are usually a reflection of your raw abilities. If you show high enough abilities to get Jets, then you probably can do the other.
I agree with almost all that you are saying on the basic flying skills, and NSS/skill set reflection stuff Squeeze. I understand the NSS system pretty well I think, so I know how all aspects play out. I will end my interest in this thread with only one final point of interest. In advanced props, we are the first line to train the E2/C2 pilots as well. It routinely happens that your E2/C2 intermediate student goes through here and is sent off to Kingsville with a sub-30 NSS, by score performing far below the average prop student, etc and having a score that if he were to wing here, probably would equate to an attrite. Is he a worse pilot than the prop studs? His primary NSS would suggest that he was a better pilot. Are his skill sets just not suited to multi eng/inst stuff, or is it the magic of the MPTS NSS. I think I could venture a guess, but it might be more fun to see where this goes! This has spun up so well already!
Having talked to a bunch of E2/C2 buddies of mine down in K-rock, their sub-30 NSS thing was a result of the system and not their lack of flying ability (in most cases anyways). Pretty much everyone who went through intermediate props *****ed about how they never got a fair shake in Corpus vice their maritime counterparts. According to them there was atleast two reasons: one was that the IP's in Corpus knew that those grades didn't amount to anything, so they never gave the grades and two, some IP's, not all, had a very negative attitude towards the E2/C2 studs.
To further it was not their ability, those E2/C2 guys take the T45 to the boat with less hours and bounces in the jet than tacair guys yet do just as well, and in some cases better than their jet counterparts (highest CQ grade I've seen came from one, a 2.91 which is pretty much unheard of). And the T45 is a test of stick ability, its not an easy jet by any means in the pattern. Then those guys go on and fly two of the most difficult aircraft to bring abroad the boat. No, their skills are far from lacking.
To further it was not their ability, those E2/C2 guys take the T45 to the boat with less hours and bounces in the jet than tacair guys yet do just as well, and in some cases better than their jet counterparts (highest CQ grade I've seen came from one, a 2.91 which is pretty much unheard of). And the T45 is a test of stick ability, its not an easy jet by any means in the pattern. Then those guys go on and fly two of the most difficult aircraft to bring abroad the boat. No, their skills are far from lacking.
My point exactly! The magic of the MPTS system and NSS doesn't always equate to piloting skills. Your score can be greatly affected by IP trends, grading ambiguity, periodic NSS curve shifts, number of graded items....you name it. I disagree with the "no fair shake" and the negative attitude towards them by IP's. I have not seen any of that, and for the record, those grades DO now count and have for a while. An E2/C2 student has to leave Corpus with at min 35 NSS or else a CO's assesment has to be done to determine if he should or should not continue in training or be attrited. If the CO thinks that he won't be successful in follow-on advanced training, he is recommended to the Commodore for attrition, and may be done, end of story. The MPTS system that has replaced the old "above/below " sytem has put a lot of flux in how things break out and how confusing things can be.
nocal80 said:
There are a few right now that might be getting attrited. So yes, it does happen.
I finished primary with a 38 NSS, so according to several posts here, I would be a below average, sh!tty pilot. I'm actually doing quite well here, much better than I did in primary. Granted 100 kts isn't as fast as 400 or so, but there's still equal opportunity to fvck up in the air (basic procedures, not talking CQ).
phrogdriver said:
sorry, I forgot the smiley face. It was probably a little bit of both. like squeeze said, my buddies who went helo's have told me attrites there are few and far between. The tone was along the same lines of schnugg's post asking if a helo attrite has ever been sent to the jet pipeline for another chance.