Advanced Attrites

[Gatordev]

The fact is, in primary, everyone is graded...The NSS are usually a reflection of your raw abilities.

I think this is a pretty accurate way to look at it. However, if you had said "...grades w/in a block usually reflect raw abilities," then it would be incorrect. Someone can get a 4 or 5 (or an above, for the old school homies) by the end of block/phase, but the guy who gets the higher NSS is the one who gets that grade quicker.

@Squeeze:

I don't know the history of attrites in HTs for the last few years, other than there were some growing pains w/ the new grading system. When I went through, though, there were a couple of attrites (on the old system).

So here's my question to the fleet (post-RAG) jet guys (and I ask, again, for my education...no other agenda): Do you have knucklehead pilots in your squadrons, just like you may have a Bob Hoover? I'm guessing you do, since every other community seems to have that spread w/in their squadron as well. I would doubt every Jet guy is "the best of the best."

 

[Punk]

Let me rephrase, I didn't say the E2/C2 intermediate grades didn't count, but the studs knew and the IP's knew that they didn't need to get a 60 NSS to move onto Kingsville. As a result, the grades were never thrown their way.

But too many guys had low NSS's coming out of Corpus to come along and rock the advanced portion to lead me to believe there isn't something wrong with the grading system down there for those guys.

 

[nocal80]

Just for my education, what makes bombing and ACM "more challenging" (if that's the right phrase)? Is it the zen of learning energy management and fighting in 3D space, or is it more mechanical? I'm talking in Advanced where the FTI and curriculum guide rule, not the fleet, where you're starting to get comfortable in your jet.

And just to chum the waters, I believe the NSS for a fleet retread to strike is 40. I don't know whose argument that supports, but I think it's an interesting factoid.

I think bombing and ACM are so challenging in tracom because they are such a radical departure from anything previously done by the studs. Phase I of jets is basically an extension of primary, except in a jet-fams, a lot of basic formation, and instruments. From there you move right into bombing, trying to manually drop bombs on target at 450 kts, all the while correcting for dive angle, winds, airspeed deviations, etc. while doing all of this you have to keep your head on a swivel and keep track of 3 other aircraft, make all of your comm calls, look for your hits and write them down, and manage your system(wing stations, mils settings). ACM is so challenging for studs because it is both mechanically and conceptually difficult, and a much more dynamic environment than studs have ever encountered before. Mechanically you have to learn to fly the jet different than you did in other stages, in order to get the desired results for a given engagement. The concepts can be difficult until they are demonstrated in the air. I would agree that phase I attrites from jets should not be given another shot somewhere else, but I think the phase II guys who attrite should get additional consideration.

I'm not sure what you mean by the 40 NSS for fleet retreads to strike. Does that mean fleet guys from other communities had to have a 40 in primary to be eligible for a strike transition, a 40 overall, or am I completely reading this wrong?

 

[Gatordev]

I'm not sure what you mean by the 40 NSS for fleet retreads to strike. Does that mean fleet guys from other communities had to have a 40 in primary to be eligible for a strike transition, a 40 overall, or am I completely reading this wrong?

From my understanding, it's the NSS based off of Primary, but I'd have to research it. The number "40" is a guess. I don't think it was 35, but I don't think it was much higher than 40....I was digging through my stuff, and still can't find it, so maybe that was from the instruction to transition a guy in my last squadron was trying for. Sorry I can't pull out where that number came from, but I'm guessing it's in the MILPERS.

As for transition for helo guys, it says you get 24.8 hours and 12 flights before you head off to Jetland. However, "Transition pilots are not required to meet EOB MIF standards." Interesting.

 

[Brett327]

So here's my question to the fleet (post-RAG) jet guys (and I ask, again, for my education...no other agenda): Do you have knucklehead pilots in your squadrons, just like you may have a Bob Hoover? I'm guessing you do, since every other community seems to have that spread w/in their squadron as well. I would doubt every Jet guy is "the best of the best."

Of course there's a spread, and some of them get "attrited" from the fleet via FNAEB or failure to make MC. I know one guy who couldn't hack the boat in the RAG so they made him an ECMO. I don't think the issue here is who's better, but that different platforms have different foci and different skill sets required to succeed. So, assuming there are aviators who can't hack one flavor of aviation, the sunk costs of training them would dictate that they could be given an opportunity to try a different flavor before they're discarded altogether.

Brett

 

[Gatordev]

Of course there's a spread, and some of them get "attrited" from the fleet via FNAEB or failure to make MC. I know one guy who couldn't hack the boat in the RAG so they made him an ECMO. I don't think the issue here is who's better, but that different platforms have different foci and different skill sets required to succeed. So, assuming there are aviators who can't hack one flavor of aviation, the sunk costs of training them would dictate that they could be given an opportunity to try a different flavor before they're discarded altogether.

Brett

Yeah, wasn't arguing the "not hear, maybe somewhere else" comment. I tend to agree w/ what nocal was saying. I was just asking what the perception was about fleet strike pilots. Since the general tone here is that "jet guys are just so good because the job is so hard," and that may be true, I was broadening the question to see if the old 80-20 rule applies to pilot ability (and I know full well it does). Okay, maybe I had a slight agenda.

 

[Punk]

Of course there's a spread, and some of them get "attrited" from the fleet via FNAEB or failure to make MC. I know one guy who couldn't hack the boat in the RAG so they made him an ECMO. I don't think the issue here is who's better, but that different platforms have different foci and different skill sets required to succeed. So, assuming there are aviators who can't hack one flavor of aviation, the sunk costs of training them would dictate that they could be given an opportunity to try a different flavor before they're discarded altogether.

Brett

Wait, so they take a winged pilot all the way through the RAG, he DQ'd at the boat in the Prowler, then they sent him into NFO-dom? That seems like the biggest waste of money imaginable. Wouldn't it have been wiser to send him to a different platform? Afterall, he did managed to qual on the boat in another jet. He's already proven he can handle an aircraft afterall.

Was there anymore to this, cause that seems kinda extreme.

 

[Brett327]

Wait, so they take a winged pilot all the way through the RAG, he DQ'd at the boat in the Prowler, then they sent him into NFO-dom? That seems like the biggest waste of money imaginable. Wouldn't it have been wiser to send him to a different platform? Afterall, he did managed to qual on the boat in another jet. He's already proven he can handle an aircraft afterall.

Was there anymore to this, cause that seems kinda extreme.

This guy had a long history of being really terrible all through the training pipeline, but managed to squeek through. He's a Marine, and he was unsafe enough so as to preclude the 129 "Hey you'll never see a boat again" kiss goodbye that sometimes occurs. If memory serves, he was given the option of C-130s or staying in the community as an ECMO.

Brett

 

[Punk]

This guy had a long history of being really terrible all through the training pipeline, but managed to squeek through. He's a Marine, and he was unsafe enough so as to preclude the 129 "Hey you'll never see a boat again" kiss goodbye that sometimes occurs. If memory serves, he was given the option of C-130s or staying in the community as an ECMO.

Brett

Sheesh, that makes more sense. Thanks Brett. You had me worried there for a second.

 

[squeeze]

I finished primary with a 38 NSS, so according to several posts here, I would be a below average, sh!tty pilot. I'm actually doing quite well here, much better than I did in primary. Granted 100 kts isn't as fast as 400 or so, but there's still equal opportunity to fvck up in the air (basic procedures, not talking CQ).

Statistically, yes, you finished primary below average. Does that mean you won't hack it anywhere else? Of course not. Any number of things can result in below average grades. Statistics aren't perfect, but they're the best method for future performance prediction. Without them, why bother keeping grades at all. Just let everyone go through and spin a selection wheel at the end of primary for your pipeline. Why don't they do that? Well, it would seem that they've studied enough students to figure out an average grade that would allow you to succeed in follow on training. Are there guys who finished below 50 and might've succeeded in jets or sub-30 attrites who might make it in helos? Sure, but statistically, they are not as likely to and thus a bigger risk of time and money.

Again, no one is saying that flying a helo isn't complex or foolproof, so please stop trying to throw out that card.

 

[Banjo33]

My point exactly! The magic of the MPTS system and NSS doesn't always equate to piloting skills. Your score can be greatly affected by IP trends, grading ambiguity, periodic NSS curve shifts, number of graded items....you name it. I disagree with the "no fair shake" and the negative attitude towards them by IP's. I have not seen any of that, and for the record, those grades DO now count and have for a while. An E2/C2 student has to leave Corpus with at min 35 NSS or else a CO's assesment has to be done to determine if he should or should not continue in training or be attrited. If the CO thinks that he won't be successful in follow-on advanced training, he is recommended to the Commodore for attrition, and may be done, end of story. The MPTS system that has replaced the old "above/below " sytem has put a lot of flux in how things break out and how confusing things can be.

Apples and oranges-->off topic.

 

[KBayDog]

I guess what I am asking is are they letting people go to other flying communities if they do not make through advanced?

Fly Navy answered this question in Post Six.

Can we now end this "going nowhere" argument, Gentlemen? (< Please note the "Assertiveness," as per good CRM. Please also note the good old-fashioned common courtesy thrown in, just for fun.)

 

[Banjo33]

and in some cases better than their jet counterparts (highest CQ grade I've seen came from one, a 2.91 which is pretty much unheard of)

When I went to the boat last year there were at least 3 of us from my squadron alone that scored between 2.9-2.98. So, it's not that unheard of (unless you're speaking of your own community).

 

[Recidivist]

Pardon my ignorance, but:
what is FNAEB and failure to make MC?
Are these guys being separated from the Navy altogether, and if so why?

 

[Punk]

When I went to the boat last year there were at least 3 of us from my squadron alone that scored between 2.9-2.98. So, it's not that unheard of (unless you're speaking of your own community).

Well, its unheard of for Kingsville boat scores. They must grade you guys like santas. :icon_tong