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Leaving Vietnam vs AFG

Brett327

Well-Known Member
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Super Moderator
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Well I was referring to Bush going into Afghanistan, not his going into Iraq. Also maybe the outcome in Afghanistan would have been far different if Iraq had not been invaded because as you said it diverted significant resources. On the other hand, who knows, then maybe Saddam Hussein would have done his best to inhibit us in Afghanistan as well...? I don't know if overthrowing Hussein was a "disastrous" policy blunder, but it was extremely foolish to think one could just invade a country that wasn't really a country and overthrow the strongman and then quickly turn it into a liberal democracy. But even though it took a lot longer then expected, in the end (prior to the Obama admin letting ISIS take over), I'd say it was more a success that had just taken far more time and resources then initially expected. But Hussein was done away with and he might be far more dangerous today if still around. Not saying this justifies the cost of having gone in though.
So I guess I still don’t understand how or why you disagree with my original statement that the Bush administration, as the architect of the policy on Afghanistan, isn't deserving of the blame for that policy’s failure. Thus far, your argument seems to be: 9/11 happened.
 

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
Bush obviously is to blame for us entering Afghanistan, he ordered it. Every President since is still fully responsible for the policies they implemented there, including the current President’s disastrous and deeply embarrassing withdrawal fiasco.
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
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Super Moderator
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I disagree. If she even runs in 2024, she won’t be the nominee.
I tend to agree with you. To be clear, my anointed comment was not referring to the Presidential nomination, it was as a spokesperson for all things regarding female empowerment and advancement.
 

SlickAg

Registered User
pilot
Bush obviously is to blame for us entering Afghanistan, he ordered it. Every President since is still fully responsible for the policies they implemented there, including the current President’s disastrous and deeply embarrassing withdrawal fiasco.
Now when you say "blame", I would argue that the blame would be on those responsible for 9/11. At the time, I'm not sure there was much else that Bush should have done; his hand was essentially forced. The problem was never having a good exit strategy. Not even a good one. Just any one.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Now when you say "blame", I would argue that the blame would be on those responsible for 9/11. At the time, I'm not sure there was much else that Bush should have done; his hand was essentially forced. The problem was never having a good exit strategy. Not even a good one. Just any one.
I get what you are saying but in an era of globalization what, exactly, is an "exit strategy?" To where are we exiting? This is a point I have made before. We maintain troops all around the globe in places we have fought. Is that a reflection of a poor exit strategy? Of course it isn't, it is a reflection of political and economic value. There is a reason several great powers have fought in Afghanistan and that reason is geographic. Air transport and rapid oceanic shipping lessens that value, but it still remains. The fighting in Afghanistan is far from over and there is a solid chance we will be back in some form or another - or maybe the Chinese will take a try.
 

Random8145

Registered User
So I guess I still don’t understand how or why you disagree with my original statement that the Bush administration, as the architect of the policy on Afghanistan, isn't deserving of the blame for that policy’s failure. Thus far, your argument seems to be: 9/11 happened.

I do agree Bush is to blame for pursuing a wrong end goal, but 9/11 having happened was a big catalyst for invading Afghanistan and because of that, I just think it is overly simplistic to squarely blame Bush.
 

SlickAg

Registered User
pilot
I get what you are saying but in an era of globalization what, exactly, is an "exit strategy?" To where are we exiting? This is a point I have made before. We maintain troops all around the globe in places we have fought. Is that a reflection of a poor exit strategy? Of course it isn't, it is a reflection of political and economic value. There is a reason several great powers have fought in Afghanistan and that reason is geographic. Air transport and rapid oceanic shipping lessens that value, but it still remains. The fighting in Afghanistan is far from over and there is a solid chance we will be back in some form or another - or maybe the Chinese will take a try.
My opinion is that history tends to repeat itself. I think there are many similarities between Afghanistan and the American Indian wars we fought in this country in the latter half of the 19th century in terms of the nature of the fight. Outposts, low intensity, hearts and minds campaign running concurrently. We were eventually successful, but it took a very long time. We stuck it out because there was a tangible goal: land and resources. Take away that and you’re left with nothing to show for it. Just like AFG.

Armies of occupation have almost always been a post-war thing. I just don’t think the nation finds them palatable anymore. Same thing that happened in Iraq after we pulled out in 2011 will undoubtedly arise there now. And I agree that someone will try to move in and replace us. Just remains to be seen who exactly that is.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
My opinion is that history tends to repeat itself. I think there are many similarities between Afghanistan and the American Indian wars we fought in this country in the latter half of the 19th century in terms of the nature of the fight. Outposts, low intensity, hearts and minds campaign running concurrently. We were eventually successful, but it took a very long time. We stuck it out because there was a tangible goal: land and resources. Take away that and you’re left with nothing to show for it. Just like AFG.

Armies of occupation have almost always been a post-war thing. I just don’t think the nation finds them palatable anymore. Same thing that happened in Iraq after we pulled out in 2011 will undoubtedly arise there now. And I agree that someone will try to move in and replace us. Just remains to be seen who exactly that is.
Professor Griz's Knowledges of the Day...History Never Repeats Itself but human nature does. We are fools to pretend we are "more mentally evolved" than any other generation since about the invention of the printing press.

Also, just a side note with reference to armies of occupation #colonialism.
 

Wareal

Well-Known Member
Contributor
"What does this even mean?"
You tell me, you replied to me.

"You posted a story that used Jack Posobiec as a source, so my confidence in your ability to discern fact from fiction is diminished.

I'm OK with your lack of confidence. I'll live.

"Whether or not she has attended all but the most recent presser, I do not know, but drawing wild conclusions about it, if it is factual, doesn’t bolster my confidence in your ability to process information objectively."

I'll chalk this up as hyperbole. I distinctly recall her standing behind POTUS at his COVID pressers. I also remember noticing her conspicuously absent last week at the presses(s). Re confidence: se my statement above. VP must have been reading this thread, she just showed up at the presser!
 

Brett327

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Super Moderator
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I do agree Bush is to blame for pursuing a wrong end goal, but 9/11 having happened was a big catalyst for invading Afghanistan and because of that, I just think it is overly simplistic to squarely blame Bush.
I mean, we’ve covered some of the nuance in this conversation. I don’t think that any of that detracts from my statement, which you seem to agree with. In fact, when taken in full, it would appear that “it was Bush’s fault” is a fairly accurate summation of all the nuance we’ve covered, no?

Maybe you’re looking for some caveats like… it was a tough decision and Bush didn’t have a lot of great options (but ultimately he repeatedly made the worst possible choices). Just seems like you’re going out of your way to give him a pass because “things were complicated.”
 

Brett327

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Super Moderator
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I tend to agree with you. To be clear, my anointed comment was not referring to the Presidential nomination, it was as a spokesperson for all things regarding female empowerment and advancement.
From my vantage, she has been remarkably low key in the administration thus far.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
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Super Moderator
Contributor
Keep laughing Brett. He's been right about more shit than you have...
You really have just jumped head first down the rabbit hole, haven’t you? I have some friends who have done the same. It has been disheartening to watch. I hope you regain some sense of normalcy soon.
 

Random8145

Registered User
I mean, we’ve covered some of the nuance in this conversation. I don’t think that any of that detracts from my statement, which you seem to agree with. In fact, when taken in full, it would appear that “it was Bush’s fault” is a fairly accurate summation of all the nuance we’ve covered, no?

Maybe you’re looking for some caveats like… it was a tough decision and Bush didn’t have a lot of great options (but ultimately he repeatedly made the worst possible choices). Just seems like you’re going out of your way to give him a pass because “things were complicated.”

Not so much a pass, just that I don't think he should be blamed 100%. To just say, "Bush is who got us into this mess...." I mean yeah, BUT that was due to 9/11.
 
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