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Leaving Vietnam vs AFG

Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor

The look on your face when you’ve been in the Navy for years and the DoD has paid for less range time and ammo for you than they’ve bought for the Taliban.
disappointed-boy-sports.jpg
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
519 elected officials and over a dozen cabinet members were in favor of using military forces in Afghanistan. In fact, the bill received a whopping 1 no vote in the House from Barbara Lee (D-CA) who didn't criticize the use of force in Afghanistan, but worried the language of the bill allowed the President to use forces anywhere in the globe.

But sure, I guess blaming it on Bush gives a lot of historical insight and helps explain why 3 other administrations over the last 13 years haven't withdrawn forces.
 

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
But sure, I guess blaming it on Bush gives a lot of historical insight and helps explain why 3 other administrations over the last 13 years haven't withdrawn forces.
As long as the other guy keeps fighting, if you quit, you lose. No one wants to be the one who loses.

I kind of thought this when I saw a Taliban holding his weapon in a shot a few days ago.

32179
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
519 elected officials and over a dozen cabinet members were in favor of using military forces in Afghanistan. In fact, the bill received a whopping 1 no vote in the House from Barbara Lee (D-CA) who didn't criticize the use of force in Afghanistan, but worried the language of the bill allowed the President to use forces anywhere in the globe.

But sure, I guess blaming it on Bush gives a lot of historical insight and helps explain why 3 other administrations over the last 13 years haven't withdrawn forces.
The question wasn’t whether or not to use military force in Afghanistan after 9/11. It’s the manner in which it was used, and the political end state that was sought.
 

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
It was destined to end this way, which sucks.

The AFG was corrupt so the Afghan people wouldn’t fight for them. They are about as bad as the Taliban.

The Taliban was always going to keep fighting, and is stronger now then when we tossed them out 20 years ago. That means we were always going to have to be the ones to end it, and whoever ends it is the loser.

Probably the time to bug out would have been not during the fighting season. Either last winter or the next, although we’d have had to surge to hang on until the next winter. Leaving smack in the middle of “hunting season” was not good timing.
 

Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor
So, and I am going to butcher the details here, long ago (1960?) there was an Army SF major who actually got into the nuances of the Vietnam war before it was a war. He wrote a cable back to DC basically saying “Ho Chi Minh is a Communist but not really a Communist, and his side is the side that will win bc the other side is so corrupt.” I need to find his name. I think it was either a Jocko or Hardcore History podcast. Anyway, this Army MAJ makes his way back toward DC to tell them not to back the South Vietnamese regime… and gets killed at a checkpoint in Vietnam before he can make it back. Basicallly, he called it 15 years early that Ho Chi Minh wasn’t a Soviet or Chinese stooge, and that we shouldn’t get involved. I think the same concept applies to the rampant corruption (suitcases of cash) of the GIRoA regimes since we installed them.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The next 3 Presidents or 10 Congresses could have changed this. They didn't.
One of them did. Not to recycle what has already been covered, but this was always going to be the outcome, though it’s increasingly clear that the execution of the withdrawal was horribly botched.
 

Random8145

Registered User
Any specific examples you’d like to share?

Where have you ever heard her talk seriously about the Chinese threat or Iran or Russia and the military requirements that will be needed to counter them, or about healthcare, or energy, or economic policy in terms of stimulating growth, etc...? I've never seen her speaking on issues and thought, This woman is a serious policy person. I don't agree with her leftist ideas, but she's definitely no slouch on the issues.
 

Random8145

Registered User
So, and I am going to butcher the details here, long ago (1960?) there was an Army SF major who actually got into the nuances of the Vietnam war before it was a war. He wrote a cable back to DC basically saying “Ho Chi Minh is a Communist but not really a Communist, and his side is the side that will win bc the other side is so corrupt.” I need to find his name. I think it was either a Jocko or Hardcore History podcast. Anyway, this Army MAJ makes his way back toward DC to tell them not to back the South Vietnamese regime… and gets killed at a checkpoint in Vietnam before he can make it back. Basicallly, he called it 15 years early that Ho Chi Minh wasn’t a Soviet or Chinese stooge, and that we shouldn’t get involved. I think the same concept applies to the rampant corruption (suitcases of cash) of the GIRoA regimes since we installed them.

I am still learning about the Vietnam War so my history is sketchy, but was Vietnam really the unwinnable war it was made out to be? My (limited) understanding of it is that the U.S. military was heavily hamstrung in its actions due to how Washington was micromanaging the whole affair. For example, instead of just going all-out and bombing the hell out of the Northern forces and their supply lines, Washington thought it proper to each time in response to an attack to gradually increase the level of force being used. This meant the North could very easily adapt to the bombings and thus not be affected. One of the Northern generals though said that if the U.S. had bombed the supply lines heavily from the beginning, the North would not have been able to continue with the war.

In spite of all that, the North still was on the ropes and tried its last desperate attack with the Tet Offensive which ended in massive failure. But then Walter Cronkite (wrongly) reported that the war had essentially reached a stalemate and thus public opinion turned against the war. So Ho Chi Minh decided to hang on. In spite of this, the North still failed to take the South and the South was able to stand on its own for some years after the U.S. withdrew all of its forces. What caused its fall was the pulling of the funding to it by Congress. With the Gulf War, the military sought to make sure that what had happened in Vietnam with all of the government micromanaging would never happen again and thus this time went in guns ablazing against Saddam's forces.

So I mean it seems like Vietnam might well have been winnable had they executed it correctly (although not saying even if very winnable that going into it was the right idea).
 

Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor
I am still learning about the Vietnam War so my history is sketchy, but was Vietnam really the unwinnable war it was made out to be? My (limited) understanding of it is that the U.S. military was heavily hamstrung in its actions due to how Washington was micromanaging the whole affair. For example, instead of just going all-out and bombing the hell out of the Northern forces and their supply lines, Washington thought it proper to each time in response to an attack to gradually increase the level of force being used. This meant the North could very easily adapt to the bombings and thus not be affected. One of the Northern generals though said that if the U.S. had bombed the supply lines heavily from the beginning, the North would not have been able to continue with the war.

In spite of all that, the North still was on the ropes and tried its last desperate attack with the Tet Offensive which ended in massive failure. But then Walter Cronkite (wrongly) reported that the war had essentially reached a stalemate and thus public opinion turned against the war. So Ho Chi Minh decided to hang on. In spite of this, the North still failed to take the South and the South was able to stand on its own for some years after the U.S. withdrew all of its forces. What caused its fall was the pulling of the funding to it by Congress. With the Gulf War, the military sought to make sure that what had happened in Vietnam with all of the government micromanaging would never happen again and thus this time went in guns ablazing against Saddam's forces.

So I mean it seems like Vietnam might well have been winnable had they executed it correctly (although not saying even if very winnable that going into it was the right idea).
cvr9780671695347_9780671695347_hr.jpg
 
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