You just made my point.
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2011 accp
- Thread starter navyavi469
- Start date
You just made my point.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Pretty much sums up how I feel about it. I think you forgot to point out our lack of these new-fangled things called "auto pilot" and "flight director" that we don't have. While we're flying an approach to mins. I'm curious how often your average airline pilot hand flies an approach without a flight director. My guess is not very often.
I thought about writing a response to include rebuttals to all the points on here but decided this is a no-win argument for both sides. But I will throw this out there.
I just flew Honolulu to Inchon with two Captains who were both military pilots, One is former active duty Air Force and now HI ANG where he first flew F-15s and now flies C-17s. The other was a retired Navy pilot who flew F-4s on active duty and C-9s in the reserves. I had this discussion with them looking for a better way to explain A4s "the show" and my 85% agreement with him. Both felt as I do - for the average pilot, both military and civilian, flying for a major airline is the pinnacle of a professional pilot's career. One of these Captains (the Navy one) said (and I recently made this comment to websan on the phone after hearing it from this Captain on an earlier flight during a similar discussion) that the big difference is that military pilots are professional military officers that fly planes as one of their tools in their profession. Airline pilots are professional pilots that fly planes as their profession.
We're fighting over opinions here so there is never going to be a winner. But having observed many P-3 pilots when I was a NFO and having observed many airline pilots in my current profession, if I had to be a pax in an airplane shooting an approach in bad weather to minimums with all the crap like strong gusty winds, poor braking, etc being thrown in on top of the shitty vis and ceiling, I'd much rather have the average major airline pilot flying than the average military pilot. Why? Because airline pilots do this shit daily and my experience is that they do it better.
On the flip side, compared a low to mid-time regional pilot to a military pilot with similar or even less time, the military pilot is significantly better. This is why it is usually easier for a military pilot to go straight to a major with significantly less time than a civilian pilot who has to go the regional route.
(Phrog73 - A flight director can screw you up big time if you're not careful. FDs are predictive and many times will give you conflicting information, i.e.tell you to go left when the raw data says go right, because they have to have time to "think" about things like speed cahnges, wind shifts, etc. Most of us "look through" the FD to the raw data, especially in close/approaching minimums. )
I just flew Honolulu to Inchon with two Captains who were both military pilots, One is former active duty Air Force and now HI ANG where he first flew F-15s and now flies C-17s. The other was a retired Navy pilot who flew F-4s on active duty and C-9s in the reserves. I had this discussion with them looking for a better way to explain A4s "the show" and my 85% agreement with him. Both felt as I do - for the average pilot, both military and civilian, flying for a major airline is the pinnacle of a professional pilot's career. One of these Captains (the Navy one) said (and I recently made this comment to websan on the phone after hearing it from this Captain on an earlier flight during a similar discussion) that the big difference is that military pilots are professional military officers that fly planes as one of their tools in their profession. Airline pilots are professional pilots that fly planes as their profession.
We're fighting over opinions here so there is never going to be a winner. But having observed many P-3 pilots when I was a NFO and having observed many airline pilots in my current profession, if I had to be a pax in an airplane shooting an approach in bad weather to minimums with all the crap like strong gusty winds, poor braking, etc being thrown in on top of the shitty vis and ceiling, I'd much rather have the average major airline pilot flying than the average military pilot. Why? Because airline pilots do this shit daily and my experience is that they do it better.
On the flip side, compared a low to mid-time regional pilot to a military pilot with similar or even less time, the military pilot is significantly better. This is why it is usually easier for a military pilot to go straight to a major with significantly less time than a civilian pilot who has to go the regional route.
(Phrog73 - A flight director can screw you up big time if you're not careful. FDs are predictive and many times will give you conflicting information, i.e.tell you to go left when the raw data says go right, because they have to have time to "think" about things like speed cahnges, wind shifts, etc. Most of us "look through" the FD to the raw data, especially in close/approaching minimums. )
[Full disclosure: I have no dog in this fight - I've never been and never will be in either a tactical platform or an airline job, and if I decide to continue flying after I retire next year it will most likely be in a test/production job at a contractor's facility, but I think I can translate between the two parties here].
I don't think people were taking issue with the airlines being "the show" based only on the flying aspect: airline guys fly more than military folks and nobody disputes that. Hours don't always directly correlate to useful experience gained, of course, but they can with a professional pilot. Nobody is going to convince me that some of those 10,000+ hour airline captains aren't at the peak of flying skills, anymore than somebody could convince me that there isn't a chunk of military pilots (from any platform, any service) who are either already equally adept or will be if they keep flying.
What rubbed people the wrong way was their interpretation of some of the posts in recent threads around here that not only are the airlines "the show", but also that anybody who doesn't want to go that route is a non-hacking pussy either too blind to see the glories of the job or lacking the skills or guts to leave the bush league.
In reality, I think there a lot of folks who still like flying in the military (whether because of the job or the security or some other reason), plus some that just don't think the airline jobs are what they used to be. Then there are the folks who look at spending x number of years waiting their turn at a regional or enduring the furloughs as not worth the effort. Not to mention people who are tired of being away from home, people who can make more money doing something else, probably some people tired of flying (the list goes on, but you get the point).
Like beauty, the "show" is in the eye of the beholder.
I don't think people were taking issue with the airlines being "the show" based only on the flying aspect: airline guys fly more than military folks and nobody disputes that. Hours don't always directly correlate to useful experience gained, of course, but they can with a professional pilot. Nobody is going to convince me that some of those 10,000+ hour airline captains aren't at the peak of flying skills, anymore than somebody could convince me that there isn't a chunk of military pilots (from any platform, any service) who are either already equally adept or will be if they keep flying.
What rubbed people the wrong way was their interpretation of some of the posts in recent threads around here that not only are the airlines "the show", but also that anybody who doesn't want to go that route is a non-hacking pussy either too blind to see the glories of the job or lacking the skills or guts to leave the bush league.
In reality, I think there a lot of folks who still like flying in the military (whether because of the job or the security or some other reason), plus some that just don't think the airline jobs are what they used to be. Then there are the folks who look at spending x number of years waiting their turn at a regional or enduring the furloughs as not worth the effort. Not to mention people who are tired of being away from home, people who can make more money doing something else, probably some people tired of flying (the list goes on, but you get the point).
Like beauty, the "show" is in the eye of the beholder.
I can understand how you and the USAF guy came to that conclusion, but not sure how the old F-4 guy can feel that way. Not to start a jet v helo pissing contest, but if he's been there and done it... i can't for the life of me think of a better feeling that getting the old girl back aboard on a shitty night.
Harrier Dude
Living the dream
I'll be honest here, I don't really get this whole dispute.
I was a TACAIR guy for almost my whole career (minus my transport/staff pouge current orders), and yet I intend to go to the airlines when I retire.
Am I "moving up to the show"? I don't know. It seems completely different and separate to me. Much better QOL, and much less fun flying. I think that when I'm 80 I'll be telling far more Marine Corps flying stories than I will airline stories, but only time will tell. To me, the highlight of my professional flying career was when I was a fleet captain. That doesn't mean I don't look forward to the next phase of my flying career.
I always intended to go to the airlines when I was done having fun here. I'd rather do that than do endless staff tours or work in a cubicle somewhere, either in the Corps or out if it.
I know a lot of guys who would rather take the cubicle. Does that make one of us better or cooler than the other?
I don't know, and I don't care. Why should any of you?
Just don't bullshit yourselves. If you are totally unqualified for the airlines, don't talk about how you are basically shunning the industry by choice. It makes you look bitter.
That would be like me saying that I would never fly helicopter air ambulances. It's ridiculous. I'm totally unqualified for that job. Saying that I'd never take that job makes me sound like I want to do it, but can't.
Oh, and would totally take that job, btw.
I was a TACAIR guy for almost my whole career (minus my transport/staff pouge current orders), and yet I intend to go to the airlines when I retire.
Am I "moving up to the show"? I don't know. It seems completely different and separate to me. Much better QOL, and much less fun flying. I think that when I'm 80 I'll be telling far more Marine Corps flying stories than I will airline stories, but only time will tell. To me, the highlight of my professional flying career was when I was a fleet captain. That doesn't mean I don't look forward to the next phase of my flying career.
I always intended to go to the airlines when I was done having fun here. I'd rather do that than do endless staff tours or work in a cubicle somewhere, either in the Corps or out if it.
I know a lot of guys who would rather take the cubicle. Does that make one of us better or cooler than the other?
I don't know, and I don't care. Why should any of you?
Just don't bullshit yourselves. If you are totally unqualified for the airlines, don't talk about how you are basically shunning the industry by choice. It makes you look bitter.
That would be like me saying that I would never fly helicopter air ambulances. It's ridiculous. I'm totally unqualified for that job. Saying that I'd never take that job makes me sound like I want to do it, but can't.
Oh, and would totally take that job, btw.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Dawgfan, that's my big beef with the Airlines. I'm in quasi-qualed land. I could get regional job tomorrow, but lack the FW PIC time to fly for a "big airline".
Hypothetical. I go to Colgan or whoever runs Continentals small planes. I get hired on with 3500 hours and a breadth of experience that dwarfs any ERAU CFII who just hit ATP mins after doing CFI work for two years.
ERAU Eddie gets hired 3 days before me. I'll always be junior to him. Forever. As long as we are both there. (HAL/Others, if I am misunderstanding this, please correct me, not the first time I understood airline shit wrong)
Having done two "Careers" in communities where "If you are not a HAC/CAPC you ain't shit" in the Navy already, I don't know if I have another couple years of "even though you know more, fly better, and have more experience than him, you can only overrule him if death is imminent" left in me.
Hypothetical. I go to Colgan or whoever runs Continentals small planes. I get hired on with 3500 hours and a breadth of experience that dwarfs any ERAU CFII who just hit ATP mins after doing CFI work for two years.
ERAU Eddie gets hired 3 days before me. I'll always be junior to him. Forever. As long as we are both there. (HAL/Others, if I am misunderstanding this, please correct me, not the first time I understood airline shit wrong)
Having done two "Careers" in communities where "If you are not a HAC/CAPC you ain't shit" in the Navy already, I don't know if I have another couple years of "even though you know more, fly better, and have more experience than him, you can only overrule him if death is imminent" left in me.
I don't think anybody can dismiss themselves as not qualified - if HAL can do it as an NFO, then nobody can say they can't do it, helo trash or otherwise. Now, if they argue they don't want to spend the money for the multi-engine qual themselves, or eat the turd of a regional job, or potentially derail their career track for C-12/C-26 gig, or whatever other excuse, then that is a different issue. But I think anybody can do it if they are willing to do what it takes.
Harrier Dude
Living the dream
I get what you're saying.
How about "inherently qualified based on your military time without wild exceptions or heroic levels of extra outside work"?
To continue my example, I guess it's theoretically possible for me to get hired as a helo air ambulance guy, but I'd have to get a couple of thousand helo hours on my own beforehand to be competitive.
Ironically, I met a Hornet pilot who flies choppers for the Border Protection dudes. He had no previous chopper time. He (and HAL) are statistical outliers. Not the general rule.
Yeah, but wouldn't that be part of the "are the airliines the show or not" discussion? If the airline gig was good enough then nobody would think twice about paying for their multi-engine qual and eating a turd for 3 years (or 5, or whatever it currently takes) in the regionals to get to a major (especially those with a military pension or a reserve job to ease the pain of burger-flipping wages).
[I'm not trying to bash the airline job here - plenty of other people have looked at it and thought that those "heroic levels" were worth it. I'm just saying there isn't universal agreement on it].
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Having a retirement check would make it easier to eat the burger flipping wages for a couple years.
Hell, even if I get hired on at a major, the first year is going to really suck. Event at Southwest, first year FO wages leave me about $10k after taxes to live on after paying mortgage, student loans, and nothing else. And my mortgage and student loans is less than most LT's mortgage.
Hell, even if I get hired on at a major, the first year is going to really suck. Event at Southwest, first year FO wages leave me about $10k after taxes to live on after paying mortgage, student loans, and nothing else. And my mortgage and student loans is less than most LT's mortgage.
Harrier Dude
Living the dream
The way I look at it, when you get out/retire you have a choice:
1. Get paid to fly.
2. Get paid to work in some kind of office.
3. Retire for realz......I.e. Go fishing.
I'd obviously rather do #3, but that ain't happening. I'd much rather do #1 than #2, but I'd rather do #2 than starve.
For those of you that would rather take option #2, more power to you. Seriously. I don't see that as a slight on your flying professionalism or manliness. Just don't make the same slights about my option.
Or go ahead......I really couldn't care less. I'm genuinely not offended.
I'd rather be a permanent JO in a gun squadron, but that's not an option.
1. Get paid to fly.
2. Get paid to work in some kind of office.
3. Retire for realz......I.e. Go fishing.
I'd obviously rather do #3, but that ain't happening. I'd much rather do #1 than #2, but I'd rather do #2 than starve.
For those of you that would rather take option #2, more power to you. Seriously. I don't see that as a slight on your flying professionalism or manliness. Just don't make the same slights about my option.
Or go ahead......I really couldn't care less. I'm genuinely not offended.
I'd rather be a permanent JO in a gun squadron, but that's not an option.