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2011 accp

KBayDog

Well-Known Member
Just don't bullshit yourselves. If you are totally unqualified for the airlines, don't talk about how you are basically shunning the industry by choice. It makes you look bitter.

Unless, of course, you are totally unqualified for the airlines, and are shunning the industry by choice. Like me. That type of flying (IFR, aerodrome to aerodrome) just does not appeal to me.

I love choppering. It's very rewarding. And it's what I intend to do when I'm done choppering for the Corps.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
Unless, of course, you are totally unqualified for the airlines, and are shunning the industry by choice. Like me. That type of flying (IFR, aerodrome to aerodrome) just does not appeal to me.

I love choppering. It's very rewarding. And it's what I intend to do when I'm done choppering for the Corps.

I have to agree with KBay. I don't have thousands of hours of fixed wing time, but I have several hundred more than what came free courtesy of Uncle Sam, on my own dime. I enjoy the variety but in the end, flying a helo is something in of itself and I'd much rather spend my days after the military in a helo instead of the airlines.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
I've been doing a fair amount of research/soul searching on the topic lately. As a rotorhead/plopterhead I'm in a particularly weird place on this issue, as I've said before. The way I see it, the helo JOBS are far more interesting, be it law enforcement/EMS/what-have-you, but the airline LIFESTYLE does have a lot going for it.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
I can understand how you and the USAF guy came to that conclusion, but not sure how the old F-4 guy can feel that way. Not to start a jet v helo pissing contest, but if he's been there and done it... i can't for the life of me think of a better feeling that getting the old girl back aboard on a shitty night.
I've obviously never been a pilot landing on a boat, but try a hand flown Cat II approach with a 100 foot solid ceiling and 600 RVR (180 meters) visibility. I did that twice last year when the autoland failed it's self check. You have about 3 to 5 seconds from when you first see the runway lights to touching down and then you only have about 3 or 4 centerline lights visible for guidance (due to blind spot of the aircraft's nose). Granted it's not a moving target but it's not for the faint hearted.

But this is just another dick measuring contest.... Only someone like Frank the Tank who I believe has done both can really honestly compare the two.
 

UInavy

Registered User
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
I've obviously never been a pilot landing on a boat, but try a hand flown Cat II approach with a 100 foot solid ceiling and 600 RVR (180 meters) visibility. I did that twice last year when the autoland failed it's self check. You have about 3 to 5 seconds from when you first see the runway lights to touching down and then you only have about 3 or 4 centerline lights visible for guidance (due to blind spot of the aircraft's nose). Granted it's not a moving target but it's not for the faint hearted.

But this is just another dick measuring contest.... Only someone like Frank the Tank who I believe has done both can really honestly compare the two.

And that's just the landing part that you're asking 'Frank the Tank' to compare for you, right? Just to reiterate- my pinnacle: the Mission, not the terminal phase of flight. I agree, to each his own. Just don't tell me yours is 'the show' when you've never done mine. I have no interest in comparing. I'm content with what I do. I just don't appreciate someone else doing the 'comparing' for me. I know 'Make Vapes' (one of the best instructors I had) wasn't there for this one:
, but I'm sure he can relate. I know the pilot and know that this wasn't the terminus of an IFR flight. Such is the day (or night) when your airfield moves, sometimes into bad wx. It's where the food is, you've gotta land......
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
^ Careful, you'll pop a blood vessel if you don't relax a little. This is just a friendly discussion and if you have "no interest in comparing" just quit the thread. No one is making you read my or anyone else's posts.

I have never told anyone to quit military flying other than saying that if an airline career is what you want, the sooner you start the better. I have also never said a military career wasn't smart, good or fun. The worst I've said is that I'm glad my Navy career was when it was and not today with all the continued BS and political correctness that is being piled on you guys.

As far as my last post, it was just to point out to Recovering LSO there are some things that airline guys do on a fairly regular basis that have similar pucker factors. Have I ever landed a jet on the boat? No. Have I ever sat in the front right seat of a KA-6 that landed on the boat? Yes, and a couple of those were even night and bad weather traps. So I feel I have somewhat of a basis to compare my pucker factor during those events to a hand flown Cat II approach to minuimus but I readily admit it takes someone who has flown both to really make a true comparison. (I've also landed in the back of EA-6s, F-14s and S-3s but in those I didn't have the same view of the evolution or of the pilot flying so they aren't really applicable.)

BTW - a better example would have been of an aircraft that had made the trap in those conditions. And from watching the Tomcat after the go-around, the visibility there was a lot better than 600 RVR. During my time as an OOD on TR, I saw a lot of wave offs during low vis and night ops at the boat. Rarely does an airline flying a Cat II or Cat III go-around. Is it because it's harder at the boat or because airlines guys do it frequently? Neither of us can answer that because we only have half the big picture. I asked the retired Navy pilot that I mentioned earlier at lunch after reading Recovering LSO's post. His answer was that since it's been over 25 years since he landed an F-4 on the boat he couldn't honestly say which was harder but landing out of a hand flown Cat II to 600 RVR was one of the most challenging things he's ever done flying planes. He also said that he could positively say his pucker factor is higher on a Cat II or Cat III approach because than it ever was on a regular basis at the boat because if he screws it up, there are 270 other people that are going to pay the price vice just him and his RIO.
 

MAKE VAPES

Uncle Pettibone
pilot
With a plethora of friends at SWA, FEDEX, Netjets and Delta, there is one common theme in their comments about their work.... "it is just a job"..... If the most tedious task in your daily flying life is how hard it is to land in bad weather when the jet has been coupled up from 1000' on the way up to 500 feet on the way down, when you've got a good divert and at least 5 more looks before you HAVE to put the big bitch down, it will never compare to the trick or treat 25 minute late pitching deck night recovery 4 v X self escort strike Level IV SFTI hop. HAL, you know this, even though you haven't done it, you've watched. We have to think, and sometimes get lucky for the 1.something hours prior to the CATII/III equivelent task at hand.

As a pilot, I can honestly say that what lies behind the cockpit door only mattered when I was trying to justify my own importance in the world... it never mattered with bernoullis on the wing, besides flying smoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooth, self preservation and doing your job better than the dude sitting to my left or right reigned supreme.

There is no comparison. Guys leave the military because almost all aspects of the airline gig are easier, not vice versa. What makes the "aura" of the show the "aura" of the show is that many folks join the military to get an airline gig, plain and simple. Guys like me quit quitting after a taste of it. After doing the C-9 IOW TAC thing (domestic and international overwater), it is boooooooooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrring. To each his own, the airlines aren't for me either. I'll try my hand at teaching high school in a few years.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Very rarely do I or any other airline pilot I fly with have the plane "coupled from 1000' feet on the way up to 500' on the way down." Only if I'm flying an RNAV departure or arrival as the FARs require it. Yes a Cat III is normally coupled to an autoland but I've had more than one disconnect. And at my airline, a Cat II is hand flown. I use this "tedious task" of landing in bad weather as my example because the example always used by Navy pilots is "land on the boat". Cat II and Cat III approaches/landings are the airline comparison.

You're mocking my job without ever having done it. C-9 reserve flying might be close but you haven't worked at an airline. I've never mocked any military flying other than in jest. Again, your opinion - but the opinion of the former military guys I fly with is normally different.

And yes, as an airline pilot you are constantly thinking of the pax behind the cockpit door. You get critiqued by pax and FAs the entire flight. Turbulence? It's the pilots fault. Don't squeak it on? There will be comments left and right. Divert? What's it going to do to the pax and what's it going to cost the airline? The list goes on.

The lifestyle and working conditions of an airline pilot are definitely "easier" as you say. So is the pay after a few years at a major. But the flying has many aspects that are as challenging or more challenging than the flying I did in the military.

For the record, I don't expect you or many of the military pilots on here to agree with me because this site is all about getting to be a military pilot not an airline pilot. But in reality this site's membership is just a small slice of military aviation. The majority of the pilots I knew in my Navy squadrons couldn't wait to get an airline gig. The majority of the former military pilots I fly with are extremely happy with their positions and wouldn't consider leaving to go back if offered the choice.

As you said, to each his own.
 

FrankTheTank

Professional Pot Stirrer
pilot
But this is just another dick measuring contest.... Only someone like Frank
the Tank who I believe has done both can really honestly compare the two.

I can compare but to be honest I AM NOT GETTING INTO THIS BULLSHIT!!! This reminds me of folks arguing about candidates in an election where they have no intention of voting! If you are not interested in 'The Show' then why comment. I am here to give perspective and MY advice, based on MY experience. HAL is trying to give his and you don't want it; fine. But I am not going to get in any of this Facebookish drama. This whole thread is exactly similar to the 'is an Navy pilot better than an Air Force pilot'. WELL.... WHO THE FUCK CARES!

Also I know quite a few folks on here, personally. And some of those commenting have never had any intention of going to the airlines so their arguments are (in my opinion) nothing but Flightinfo Flamebait!

If you have questions or want my advice, just ask. If not then sit down and shut the fuck up!

Guess I woke up on the wrong side of the bed!

Sidenote: Wasn't this thread started because ya'll were pissed because you thought you should get more money to stay in the Navy? How Ironic...
 

BOMBSonHAWKEYES

Registered User
pilot
Here's something for you old guys - nowadays we land at the boat at night EVERYDAY. And on a typical cruise to the persian gulf during the spring/summer we land in 1/2 mile or less almost EVERYDAY. Sure we got better instruments than you had, but we use them. And if the number of single engine / no hud / name misc FCS emergency events occurred in the commercial aviation world as frequently as it does around an aircraft carrier, nobody would fly commercial.

I think we can put the "commercial aviation weather is worse than you got it" argument to bed.
 
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