NJP TO OFFICER

[sickboy]

There’s a URL LT here (LCDR select if it matters) that had the great pleasure of being a PO3 twice.

 

[Swanee]

There’s a URL LT here (LCDR select if it matters) that had the great pleasure of being a PO3 twice.

Yeah. The exception that proves the rule.


Why is there so much support for folks who fucked up career-wise?

It's not like this dude couldn't land a jet on a boat at night and had to find a new career. He broke the law.

Is someone who broke the law worth it, compared to others who didn't?

There are instances of NJP for homosexual conduct that should not apply anymore. But I assume this isn't the case.

So why are so many people here (who, in the civilian world wouldn't accept it) suddenly accepting of someone who broke the law?

 

[nodropinufaka]

Yeah. The exception that proves the rule.


Why is there so much support for folks who fucked up career-wise?

It's not like this dude couldn't land a jet on a boat at night and had to find a new career. He broke the law.

Is someone who broke the law worth it, compared to others who didn't?

There are instances of NJP for homosexual conduct that should not apply anymore. But I assume this isn't the case.

So why are so many people here (who, in the civilian world wouldn't accept it) suddenly accepting of someone who broke the law?

What are you talking about? Are you seriously comparing NJP to a civil or criminal penalty?

For one- when you break the law you’re afforded rights which you aren’t when you’re NJPd.

Second, The standards of evidence aren’t nearly the same.

Third, you can get double jeopardy with being both NJPd and breaking a law. They aren’t remotely the same.

And I dunno where you work but 99 percent of employers don’t give a shit about your off time except maybe airline pilots or first responders.

Half the lawyers I work with have DUIs and are complete Coke heads and prob make 3 times as much as an O6 while in their thirties.

If I got a DUI I wouldn’t even tell my work and if I did theyd ask me why I even told them and would call me dumb.

 

[Swanee]

What are you talking about? Are you seriously comparing NJP to a civil or criminal penalty?

For one- when you break the law you’re afforded rights which you aren’t when you’re NJPd.

Second, The standards of evidence aren’t nearly the same.

Third, you can get double jeopardy with being both NJPd and breaking a law. They aren’t remotely the same.

And I dunno where you work but 99 percent of employers don’t give a shit about your off time except maybe airline pilots or first responders.

Half the lawyers I work with have DUIs and are complete Coke heads and prob make 3 times as much as an O6 while in their thirties.

If I got a DUI I wouldn’t even tell my work and if I did theyd ask me why I even told them and would call me dumb.

In my civilian job if I got a DUI I would lose my security clearance, which I would be fire for.

Lawyers are disbarred, Doctors lose their license to practice, Pilots lose their certificates.
They all get fired for it.


I suppose a bagger at Walmart might not get fired for being a meth head.

There is a standard of conduct that one is expected to uphold in their position.

The Marines I've NJP'd I wouldn't recommend for an officer slot over those who I didn't.

 

[nodropinufaka]

In my civilian job if I got a DUI I would lose my security clearance, which I would be fire for.

Lawyers are disbarred, Doctors lose their license to practice, Pilots lose their certificates.
They all get fired for it.


I suppose a bagger at Walmart might not get fired for being a meth head.

There is a standard of conduct that one is expected to uphold in their position.

yea and you know the difference?


for a lawyer to be disbarred or a doctor to lose their license they have to go through hearings and a criminal process for it to even be considered. Then if convicted they have to go through more hearings from panels to determine if the license should be pulled.

and then, here’s the real kicker, they can regain it after suspension.

NJPs aren’t anything like that and it’s literally one person punishing an individual with weak standards of evidence and zero due process.

And then, by your logic and others, said individual should never have a chance to come back from it.

And I don’t know where you work but a lot of places don’t care at all about your criminal or background as long as you aren’t stealing money from them.

 

[wlawr005]

Yeah. The exception that proves the rule.


Why is there so much support for folks who fucked up career-wise?

It's not like this dude couldn't land a jet on a boat at night and had to find a new career. He broke the law.

Is someone who broke the law worth it, compared to others who didn't?

There are instances of NJP for homosexual conduct that should not apply anymore. But I assume this isn't the case.

So why are so many people here (who, in the civilian world wouldn't accept it) suddenly accepting of someone who broke the law?

By this logic we should keep people in jobs they are incapable of doing just because they are nice.

Being nice doesn't mean you can land on the boat at night just like being "bad" doesn't mean you can't.

Not a great comparison.

 

[Swanee]

yea and you know the difference?


for a lawyer to be disbarred or a doctor to lose their license they have to go through hearings and a criminal process for it to even be considered. Then if convicted they have to go through more hearings from panels to determine if the license should be pulled.

and then, here’s the real kicker, they can regain it after suspension.

NJPs aren’t anything like that and it’s literally one person punishing an individual with weak standards of evidence and zero due process.

And then, by your logic and others, said individual should never have a chance to come back from it.

And I don’t know where you work but a lot of places don’t care at all about your criminal or background as long as you aren’t stealing money from them.

That's not true. A doctor can be fired after a Morbidity and Mortality hearing.
NJP is just like that.


What about a teacher, a cop, a firefighter?

You are missing the point that we're expected to be better than Joe civilian- we're held to a higher standard.

NJP is the LOWEST level of administrative action for failing to meet the basic requirements for your job.

 

[Swanee]

By this logic we should keep people in jobs they are incapable of doing just because they are nice.

Being nice doesn't mean you can land on the boat at night just like being "bad" doesn't mean you can't.

Not a great comparison.

No. Being nice has nothing to do with it.


But the Marine Corps looks at them the same way (NJP and failed career milestones).


(My career is a case in point)

 

[wlawr005]

I wouldn't ever describe anything about the USMC as functional, especially its leadership.

 

[SELRES_AMDO]

Yeah. The exception that proves the rule.


Why is there so much support for folks who fucked up career-wise?

It's not like this dude couldn't land a jet on a boat at night and had to find a new career. He broke the law.

Is someone who broke the law worth it, compared to others who didn't?

There are instances of NJP for homosexual conduct that should not apply anymore. But I assume this isn't the case.

So why are so many people here (who, in the civilian world wouldn't accept it) suddenly accepting of someone who broke the law?

I just don't think it should be a career ender. I watched pretty much every JO I worked with drink and drive. None of them were caught.

Maybe I'm different than everyone else because I want people who can do their jobs and do it well. My former PO1 was by far the best in his peer group but made a mistake 8 years prior. Seems pretty stupid to ignore the next 8 years of accomplishment because he did something dumb once.

I've always thought of NJP as a minor infraction. You get punished and life moves on. In my opinion, the Navy should give you a chance to recover. I don't see how it is beneficial to hold a NJP over someone for the rest of their entire career. There's plenty of people who haven't screwed up but suck at their job. I'll take the top performer.

No one here is saying they shouldn't be punished. But support? Absolutely. I'll support my top performers. If they went to NJP and took their punishment and proved they can be resilient then they deserve support from their leadership.

 

[Spekkio]

I've always thought of NJP as a minor infraction. You get punished and life moves on. In my opinion, the Navy should give you a chance to recover. I don't see how it is beneficial to hold a NJP over someone for the rest of their entire career. There's plenty of people who haven't screwed up but suck at their job. I'll take the top performer.

This argument has devolved into creating two mythical creatures because people didn't like Brett's answer:

In the red corner we have a stellar #1 EP E-5 who's performing as an E-7. He's so good that the command couldn't get along without him. He finds out his wife wants a divorce, has a lapse of judgment, and gets a DUI and goes to NJP while his officer package is pending.

In the blue corner we have a sailor who makes a career of skating. He keeps his nose clean, but everyone knows he's dead weight to the command. He puts in an officer package because why the hell not?

These are called 'edge cases' and CO's have the discretion to communicate when they happen. The vast majority of sailors aren't so good at their job that it instantly erases an NJP.

Neither the 'red' or 'blue' sailor is likely to be selected for a commissioning program because, contrary to the anecdotal claims in this thread, there are plenty of EPs in the fleet who didn't go to NJP in the last 36 months. If the 'red' sailor continues his/her performance and learns from his/her experiences, in three years they can apply and will likely get accepted.

 

[HAL Pilot]

I saw Es get NJP for the only reason being they worked for an idiot or they worked for a power hunger asshole.

Example: NJP for missing movement: Overslept and missed the bus to the airport where the charter flight was waiting to take the ground. Figured this out, called the duty office (pre-cell phone days) and had his wife drive him to the airport. Arrived at the airport well before the bus and called the duty office again to let them know. The only thing that happened at the squadron before getting on the bus was having your name checked off on a clipboard. The LPO saw this guy as competition and the Chief and LPO were long time buddies. Chief convinces the CMC to back him (CMC thought Chiefs were never wrong in any circumstance). Great Sailor gets NJP with penalties suspended.

This is just of multiple times I felt NJP was unjustified or appropriate. Good Sailors given a black mark, stigma and loss of good conduct medal for no good reason.

Granted, most NJP was justified, appropriate and awarded fairly. But it's not a perfect system.

This whole thread might have more context if the OP had said what the NJP was for and something about performance and evals.

 

[Brett327]

NJPs aren’t anything like that and it’s literally one person punishing an individual with weak standards of evidence and zero due process.

Your perception of NJP and the naval justice system needs some refining. Unless you're underway, the individual has the right to bump it up to a court martial, where all the normal rules of evidence and due process apply. Even underway, you can appeal to the SCMCA post NJP. In general terms, the outcome of NJP is going to be preferable to CM, but if the individual truly feels that they've been wrongly accused, or being unfairly targeted by their CO, they have options. In most scenarios, a military member essentially has all the same rights as a civilian when it comes to disposing of a misconduct case.

 

[SELRES_AMDO]

Neither the 'red' or 'blue' sailor is likely to be selected for a commissioning program because, contrary to the anecdotal claims in this thread, there are plenty of EPs in the fleet who didn't go to NJP in the last 36 months. If the 'red' sailor continues his/her performance and learns from his/her experiences, in three years they can apply and will likely get accepted.

I've stated multiple times that I am discussing events that happened in the past and the individual proved they learned a lesson and continued to perform.

I agree with you that someone should not get a commissioning package endorsement if they just went to NJP. That is part of the punishment and we all know how the game is played. But, I don't think an ENS or AN who got a DUI when they just started their career should be thrown out of the Navy and never given a second chance. That is all I'm saying.

 

[nodropinufaka]

Your perception of NJP and the naval justice system needs some refining. Unless you're underway, the individual has the right to bump it up to a court martial, where all the normal rules of evidence and due process apply. Even underway, you can appeal to the SCMCA post NJP. In general terms, the outcome of NJP is going to be preferable to CM, but if the individual truly feels that they've been wrongly accused, or being unfairly targeted by their CO, they have options. In most scenarios, a military member essentially has all the same rights as a civilian when it comes to disposing of a misconduct case.

Know what happened to the last guy I saw try the CM route?

The CO panicked and instead just processed an Admin sep on him since he had under 6 years of service.

How is that justice?