NJP TO OFFICER

[Pags]

I did it, so.....I know at least one guy.

Did your NJP come during the board process or was it sometime before you put in for STA?

There's a big difference between:
-Sailor A who gets NJP early in his career, learns from it, and goes on to have a history of high performance past the NJP
-Sailor B who had good performance but then goes on to demonstrate poor performance that, per high level instruction, makes them ineligible.

Also, as others have mentioned, the board is VERY competitive. If there are 100 sailors up for 10 slots and 99 of the candidates have perfect records why would a CO send up a subpar candidate who won't get selected unless there's some sort of amazing success story in there such as NJP as an E-3 but has since made E-6 and become a cornerstone of the command (big jobs, collaterals, etc) that demonstrate the maturity desired for Officers. That's also not the case of a zero defect mentality, that's a CO being aware of the competitive nature of the board and what the board is looking for.

Also, I'm not sure zero defect is the same as toxic command climate.

 

[nodropinufaka]

So just imagine for a second the optics of stating what was said earlier in this thread.

I’m sure @Brett327 maybe had meant differently or his statement was a little too broad.

Enlisted members looking to move up or succeed in the Navy will see that statement and take away from it that “no matter how good I am if I make one mistake then I will not ever have a chance of a commission or succeeding into higher ranks”

Meanwhile the enlisted see the Officers all over the news during (insert scandal- Fat Leonard, Savage, etc) and know that often Junior Officers and Chiefs aren’t held to the same standards and know about NJP offenses from Khakis in the command being swept under the rug.

So imagine what hearing a statement like that from a Commanding Officer means to them.

During my time in I saw our Skipper let a JO who tested positive for coke try to fight the case and not NJP him cause he claimed it was a false positive. Even went as far as to keep the information from the security manager. During this exact same time he sent no less then 5 enlisted to NJP for spice.

 

[Brett327]

The fact that some officers get in trouble is a red herring and not germane to how we screen enlisted applicants for officer programs.

 

[Pags]

I personally don't see a huge optics issue with telling Sailors that only the best can even be contenders at the STA board and that NJP in their record will HURT (not prevent) their chances. Also there's instructions out there that allow Sailors the time required to recover from an NJP. That's just being an honest broker.

Would it look worse for the Sailors if they saw Sailors with NJPs and non-exceptional records going on to be Os?

Also, my sea lawyer degree is dated, but COs don't usually NJP officers. There's Admirals Mast but the rules are different for Os.

 

[nodropinufaka]

The fact that some officers get in trouble is a red herring and not germane to how we screen enlisted applicants for officer programs.

yes but watching said officers get treated differently for much harsher offenses is the issue.

like they say- “different spanks for different ranks”

 

[Flash]

The fact that some officers get in trouble is a red herring and not germane to how we screen enlisted applicants for officer programs.

 

[Gatordev]

yes but watching said officers get treated differently for much harsher offenses is the issue.

like they say- “different spanks for different ranks”

But that's a whole different argument, and one that does get attention by O's when E's ask about it. A big reason why there are different "spanks" because the career repurcussions are very different. A sailor can be NJP'ed and still go on with a successful career. An officer that is NJP'ed is pretty much dead in the water. That's why NPLOCs (and the various flavors of letters) are used, as it's a tool to keep the O on probation and not shoot them in the face.

I've also seen the other side, where the O went to mast and was removed from service (for good reason). So it's not universal that O's walk.

 

[wlawr005]

If the best sailor in my command had an NJP and was up against five other sailors who were also qualified, my recommendation would go to my best sailor, period. Assuming the required three years had passed to make them eligible, I'm not even sure it would factor into my decision.

 

[Jim123]

The fact that some officers get in trouble is a red herring and not germane to how we screen enlisted applicants for officer programs.

I think it is germane in the sense that officer programs are first and foremost about leadership, which means "someone is always watching." It's beside the main point but it's still connected.

Optics, perception and why sayings like "different spanks for different ranks" even exist, zero defect mentality, people's expectations on how to rebound from bad decisions- all that stuff coms down to how well the front office, the wardroom, the goat locker, and the troops communicate with each other. Heh... which reminds me, that's why we have leadership training with those "send, receive, listen, feedback" powerpoint diagrams.

Also, my sea lawyer degree is dated, but COs don't usually NJP officers.

Heard of it happening a few times- friend of mine derailed his own career with a zipper malfunction (long story), O failed wiz quiz for coke and then failed it again when he was proverbially TAD'ed to the wing for "what are we going to do with this guy" admin hold, non-rated LTJG baby SWO on liberty (spoiler alert: kind of already a problem child).

Actually the liberty one was hilarious for a bunch of reasons. LTJG and mid sign out on overnight liberty, hop on a plane from island (liberty port) to mainland as part of cool sounding MWR tour, can't figure out how/don't bother to contact the quarterdeck with their information, fleet commander goes nuts because ship now has ~99.4% accountability of personnel, LTJG and mid return to ship next day like no big deal. (Mid was prior-E too, seems like he'd be the smarter one of that pair, although I'd describe his personality as kinda spaced out.) Captain and his admin/legal mull it over and decide on NJP for both of them. Here comes the punchline, and this is no shit, the Mid's name was Jesus. So there you have it, folks, the story of when the skipper took Jesus to mast.

 

[Pags]

If the best sailor in my command had an NJP and was up against five other sailors who were also qualified, my recommendation would go to my best sailor, period. Assuming the required three years had passed to make them eligible, I'm not even sure it would factor into my decision.

You're presenting a different scenario from the original one that was discussed. Sailor A who got NJP and then had a history of subsequent exceptional performance is a different story than Sailor B who was an exceptional performer and then got NJP. Sailor A has a demonstrated upward trend with problem in the past and has learned to recover and should certainly be a contender. Sailor B has a negative trend with recent problems. Does Sailor B still get your nod?

 

[wlawr005]

Sailor B isn't even eligible per the 1420 so I don't think it's a mind boggling scenario.

 

[Brett327]

If the best sailor in my command had an NJP and was up against five other sailors who were also qualified, my recommendation would go to my best sailor, period. Assuming the required three years had passed to make them eligible, I'm not even sure it would factor into my decision.

If the best Sailor in your command went to NJP for drug use, or DUI, are they really still your best Sailor?

 

[Pags]

Sailor B isn't even eligible per the 1420 so I don't think it's a mind boggling scenario.

Which I think answers the original scenario in this thread and the concerns around it.

 

[Spekkio]

I think it is germane in the sense that ... It's beside the main point but it's still connected.

That's kind of the definition of red herring.

A more direct comparison is how many civilian applicants are accepted for commissioning programs when they can't get a recommendation from their most recent employer due to being fired? How many are accepted with a DUI in the past 12 months? Prior drug charges or drug use in the past 12 months? Convicted of a misdemeanor or felony in the last 12 months?

 

[Frenchiee]

let say that sailor work his ass off and got his degree ( with A 3.5 GPA) while being on forward deployed ship, somehow his coc dislike him and send him up for doing the something as everybody else been doing, would you still cut this sailor dream short by denies him a LOR?