CAPT Scott Speicher - KIA

[BigIron]

If you are a POW, you are serving time in the military. If you are duty status whereabouts unknown you are serving time in the military and get the pay/benefits of your rank. He is probably YG '80 or '81 (maybe 79), if he was a LCDR in early '91. That would make him a mid-grade O6 or Captain.

 

[Flash]

A little history for y'all. In World War II, servicemen who were captured generally were not promoted while they were in captivity. It was the same way in Korea and other previous wars. There was generally not that much a problem with it until the Vietnam War, simply because the previous conflicts that we were in did not last as long as the Vietnam War (for the second longest, you have to go back to the Revolutionary War).

From the time that Eddie Alvarez was shot down in the summer of 1964 to when the last POW's were released by North Vietnam it was over EIGHT YEARS! Due to the length of their captivity, the hardship on their dependents and basic fairness the military kept promoting them at the time their peers were up for promotion (I believe their dependents were paid the salary). I think that Alvarez went in as a LTJG and came out a LCDR or CDR (not which one, he retired at CDR).

Please be aware, I am doing the following from memory so there may be a few small discrepancies, please let me know if I get any of the details wrong:

The DOD designated LCDR Speicher a KIA a day after he was shot down on the first night of the war. The designation was apparently questioned at the time by some of his fellow aviators in his Airwing due to the lack of evidence that he was dead, they had no body. There is even some dispute on how he died, he may have apparently been shot down by a MiG-25 Foxbat (it was seen on radar and visually in afterburner by several other members of the Airwing about the time and in the same vicinity of where Speicher went down). The crash site was not found at the time and his body was still missing at the end of the war.

A couple of years later (1994/5?) a Qatari Major was falconeering in the desert of Iraq when he came across the wreckage. He told the US about the crash site and we requested Iraq to take a look at it and were allowed a year later. The crash site had been obviously tampered with in the intervening year (the Qatari Major had given a pretty good description and pictures? of the site and some obvious stuff was missing or had been moved) and Speicher's body was not found. The Iraqi's handed over what they claimed was his flight suit but we found no evidence that it was.

The Navy decided to redesignate LCDR Speicher Missing/Captured in 1999? and he was promoted as a POW would be. A special team went in to look for Speicher after OIF and unfortunately found no conclusive evidence of his fate (I work some of the guys who assisted the team). There were some eyewitness reports from other prisoners held in Iraq in the 90's but they have not been verified.

That is where it stands right now.

 

[rare21]

Everett Alvarez was promoted to LCDR from LT j.g. while in captivity.

I believe John McCain was promoted while in captivity as well.

 

[Banjo33]

Forgive my ignorance, but don't you have to submit for a board in order to qualify for promotion? If you don't submit, you get passed over, and if you're passed over 3 times you're done, right?

 

[bunk22]

A little history for y'all. In World War II, servicemen who were captured generally were not promoted while they were in captivity. It was the same way in Korea and other previous wars. There was generally not that much a problem with it until the Vietnam War, simply because the previous conflicts that we were in did not last as long as the Vietnam War (for the second longest, you have to go back to the Revolutionary War).

From the time that Eddie Alvarez was shot down in the summer of 1964 to when the last POW's were released by North Vietnam it was over EIGHT YEARS! Due to the length of their captivity, the hardship on their dependents and basic fairness the military kept promoting them at the time their peers were up for promotion (I believe their dependents were paid the salary). I think that Alvarez went in as a LTJG and came out a LCDR or CDR (not which one, he retired at CDR).

Please be aware, I am doing the following from memory so there may be a few small discrepancies, please let me know if I get any of the details wrong:

The DOD designated LCDR Speicher a KIA a day after he was shot down on the first night of the war. The designation was apparently questioned at the time by some of his fellow aviators in his Airwing due to the lack of evidence that he was dead, they had no body. There is even some dispute on how he died, he may have apparently been shot down by a MiG-25 Foxbat (it was seen on radar and visually in afterburner by several other members of the Airwing about the time and in the same vicinity of where Speicher went down). The crash site was not found at the time and his body was still missing at the end of the war.

A couple of years later (1994/5?) a Qatari Major was falconeering in the desert of Iraq when he came across the wreckage. He told the US about the crash site and we requested Iraq to take a look at it and were allowed a year later. The crash site had been obviously tampered with in the intervening year (the Qatari Major had given a pretty good description and pictures? of the site and some obvious stuff was missing or had been moved) and Speicher's body was not found. The Iraqi's handed over what they claimed was his flight suit but we found no evidence that it was.

The Navy decided to redesignate LCDR Speicher Missing/Captured in 1999? and he was promoted as a POW would be. A special team went in to look for Speicher after OIF and unfortunately found no conclusive evidence of his fate (I work some of the guys who assisted the team). There were some eyewitness reports from other prisoners held in Iraq in the 90's but they have not been verified.

That is where it stands right now.

Good stuff. I read a book written by an intel officer, No One Left Behind ( I believe), that has some good info on the subject. I firmly believe Capt Speicher was alive after being shot down (by a MIG-25) but after that, who knows how long he survived. My wife and I both carry his POW/MIA bracelot.

 

[theblakeness]

go to http://www.freescottspeicher.com

It explains in a little bit more depth his promotions. Im pretty active (or was anyway) with the site and the people involved.

No One Left Behind was a very good book but it did provide some details that never could be verified, such as the theory that he was victim of AF F-15 friendly fire.

 

[A4sForever]

An older link: http://home.att.net/~LIGWVets/speicher.htm

Still -- it has some good, worthwhile information .......

NEVER FORGET ......

 

[Steve Wilkins]

well, well, well.....A4's is alive

 

[beau]

Its hard to believe that he is still alive....that beening said..."No one left behind" really made me think twice about it. That book really made me mad! All the clues point to the fact the Saddam got a free ticked to have Speicher as a trophy because we failed to list him as Missing In Action on the Red Cross list that released the POW's at the end of the war.

A lot of Theories ...not many facts...very little evidence to prove he is being held Today.

 

[zippy]

Isn't it a raw deal for the family of this pilot? From what I understand, if you are MIA status your family doesn't receive compensation from the government if you were considered KIA. Now it's nice and all that theres this "hope" out there for this guy to still be alive, but like Brett said, it might be time to move on and I'm sure the family has.

If i remember correctly it was his wife and her new husband that pushed for his status to be changed to what it is now.

 

[Uncle Fester]

You mean the F-18 shot down? That's what I've heard about Scott Speicher's shoot-down, that it may have been by a MiG-29 and not a SAM, as reported.

 

[bunk22]

You mean the F-18 shot down? That's what I've heard about Scott Speicher's shoot-down, that it may have been by a MiG-29 and not a SAM, as reported.

Nope, not Speicher but the F-14 that was shot down. It was listed as a SAM but he said there are indications that is wasn't but wasn't specific. Meaning, he probably doesn't have the specifics ie rumor mill. From what I've read about Speicher, a Mig-25 shot him down.

 

[Bevo16]

[FONT=Verdana,Sans-serif]AP: China admits taking, burying US POW[/FONT]

complete POW/MIA accountability at the end of every conflict being one of the greatest disgraces and shortcomings -- repeated disgraces and shortcomings -- of our country.

I respectfully disagree.

No other country in the world can match the efforts, past and present, to account for and recover the missing from our nation's wars. At this very second, the DOD is sponsoring the Southeast Asia Government Briefings is Washington DC. Every family member of a US Serviceman who was lost during the Vietnam War has been flown to Washington at the taxpayer's expense so they can meet one-on-one with the extensive team that works to find these men and bring them home.

In addition to these briefings, the Korea/Cold War briefings will be in October, and the DOD sponsors 10 "Family Updates" each year at different sites around the country. This allows the DOD experts a chance to go to the family members to brief them on their loved one's individual case.

Take a look at:

http://www.jpac.pacom.mil/

and

http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/

Those are your lead offices for the POW/MIA effort. In addition, each service maintains a POW/MIA section in their individual casualty offices. These guys are responsible for basically being a long term CACO for the family members. They also assist JPAC and DPMO in dealing with the family members and often deal directly with congress on MIA issues. Every Navy MIA dating back to the Civil War has an individual file at the casualty office. The Navy has, on average, 10+ MIA's returned per year. There are several identifications pending this year that may double that number.


In reference to the article that you linked, this is actually good news. Recovery operations for the Korean War have gotten very slow due to the simple fact that we have no access to North Korea. We know where many of the UN burial sites are, and where the prison camps were, but we can't get to them. Our relations with China are much better than North Korea. If it turns out that there are remains in that country, it will be a lot easier to conduct recovery operations at those sites and bring our guys home.

I could go on and on about the ongoing operations, but a lot of the information is in those web sites, and you can read it for yourself if you want.

 

[A4sForever]

I respectfully disagree. ....

Same here -- disagree -- and you're drinkin' the Kool Aid when you content yourself w/ the sources emanating from the very entity that cut our guys loose: official government feel-good smoke & mirrors. I'm quite familiar w/ JPAC and their operations for a variety of reasons. The individuals involved do some good and are well-intentioned, but the rest .... ??

The remains of one of my former squadron's crews were only discovered by the personal efforts of the guys who came home -- not the government.

We knowingly left POW's behind @ the end of the Vietnam conflict, just to name one war.

 

[Bevo16]

Same here -- disagree -- and you're drinkin' the Kool Aid when you content yourself w/ the sources emanating from the very entity that cut our guys loose: official government feel-good smoke & mirrors. I'm quite familiar w/ JPAC and their operations for a variety of reasons. The individuals involved do some good and are well-intentioned, but the rest .... ??

The remains of one of my former squadron's crews were only discovered by the personal efforts of the guys who came home -- not the government.

We knowingly left POW's behind @ the end of the Vietnam conflict, just to name one war.

A4's,

I would love to hear some kind of evidence to back up that final statement. I am pretty close to this operation, and I have never seen anything to suggest that anyone on an MIA list was in POW status at the end of the war. These claims have had a high level of visibility and were investigated at the highest levels. Nothing to support those claims has ever turned up. Every "live sighting" report turned out to be one of the more than 300 American deserters who opted to stay in Vietnam after the war, Russian "technicans" mistaken for Americans, or outright scams by Cambodian officals. There has also been speculation that rumors of rewards for turning over American POW's were created so that they would turn over some of the deserters.

If you know something or know someone who does, I would be happy to talk about it in an official capacity. You can PM me for contact information, but you may already have my work e-mail.

FYI, I can't stand "cool-aid", and I grew up on a ranch so my bullshit detector is pretty well calibrated.