CAPT Scott Speicher - KIA

[Flash]

I have to agree with Bevo on this. I find it very hard to believe that the personnel who have worked in JPAC and the other places that try and track POW/MIA's are all a smokescreen, or have helped perpetrate what would be a horrible fraud on the American public and the POW/MIA families (that would also include Congress and the Executive Branch officials as well). From what I have seen, Bevo is right on about the accounting for the Vietnam-era POW's. As far as I know, there has not been one verified piece of evidence that has shown that Vietnam, Vietcong, Pathet Lao, the PRC or anyone else kept POW's after the armistice. There are still some unanswered questions about some taken during the Korean War and during the Cold War, but the Vietnam War MIA's have been thoroughly investigated, with only remains recovered.

A retired Army Colonel who was involved in POW/MIA efforts set up a website to debunk some myths. His tone is a bit sharp, but it is an interesting perspective:

http://www.miafacts.org/

 

[LazersGoPEWPEW]

I have some information on what happened to Speicher and where they think he is now. I know the guys that were on the ship with him and the one who saw him go down. If you get into reading about the incident and all the stuff occurring in the aftermath it's interesting stuff. Screwed the pooch HARD on that one. From what I have been told they think there is a possibility that he is in Syria.(That's not confirmed though) If he's still alive.

 

[Zissou]

I'll leave his status to the many diligent people still working on his behalf.

 

[eddie]

Bevo,

Are you saying we a phenomenal job at this, or that we do a better job than anyone else? Both?

 

[Bevo16]

Until we have 100% accountability? We have failed.

I think that I know what you mean, but I a better way to say it is that "Until we have 100% accountability, we will not rest." We will have failed if we quit.

That is why we are busting our ass sending mitochondrial DNA kits to every maternal family member of missing service members. That's why we have hundreds of DOD members trained and out in the field digging up crash sites and turning dirt in Korea looking for remains.

The US Government has done some pretty crappy things. Failure to respond to the P-2V shoot down in November of 1951 by the Soviet Union is one. Then there was Nixon sitting on his hands in April of 1969 when North Korea murdered the crew of a Navy EC-121 over the Sea of Japan. That's the tip of the iceberg.

Unfortunately, there are times where the truth hurts. Trust me when I tell you, that it's not fun to sit across the table from the family of a deserter and explain the facts of the case. Same deal trying to explain to a pilot that his RIO did not come back because he decided not to. "But he would never do that." Ok, he is a free man and could have come back in 1975 under the amnesty program, and he didn't. Explain that.

People are very passionate about this issue, for good reason. If there is a more blinding emotion than passion, I don't know what it is.

Like I told A4's, I would be happy to discuss an issue with someone in an official capacity if they have information, I would love to hear it. If someone wants information on a former squadron mate, let me know and I'll check the McCain status on the file. You have to be really careful of the sources of information on this subject. There is a lot of bad information out there in addition to some real nutball conspiracy theorists and fakes.

I do know one thing for sure: If you go missing, people are going to come looking for you.

 

[Bevo16]

Bevo,

Are you saying we a phenomenal job at this, or that we do a better job than anyone else? Both?

Both.

Until I started working my current job, I had no idea how extensive the efforts are. In some cases, I think that we are even going to far. That's an off-line discussion.

 

[A4sForever]

I have to agree with Bevo on this. I find it very hard to believe .....

Yeah ... I suspected that; in actuality, I knew if you chimed in that would be your take on the question.

Both of you are coming at this question from the WRONG perspective. You require "proof" before you can/will move -- which points to your lack of experience w/ the Communist or Oriental mindset for frame of reference, your ultra conservative approach to the question, and your innate timidity in aggressively pursing the issue. Not a personal criticism, per se -- so don't get all hot & sweaty-- but rather consider it an opportunity for expanding your horizons.

Bevo -- thanks for your offer of "help", but my sources and personal contacts in the POW/MIA "search" go far, far above either your or Flash's pay grades. Granted ... the trail has grown cold for me w/ the passage of time and my own personal life has moved on -- for better or for worse. I have been out of the "direct" POW/MIA loop for more than a couple of years -- but at the time suffice it to say it conjoined w/ the "highest" levels of more than two government agencies that were intimately involved in the question as well as more than a few well heeled private concerns. BUPERS -- ??? --- I laugh: BUPERS was just one of the minor recipients of anything -- certainly not one of the players. BUPERS had ME classified as MIA for 4 years .... but I still got paid. Just no promotions.

You guys always want ironclad "proof" before you can act. What a joke, what colossal naivety, masked as requiring "evidence". That's like saying I require "proof" that O.J. is/was guilty. That's like saying I require "proof" that when I turn the switch on the wall, the light will come on. That's like saying I require "proof" that the sun will come up tomorrow .... it goes a long way toward showing a lack of experience w/ the Asian view of the world and the "in the box" mentality that is all too typical of many (most?) government employees. Again, this is not meant as a "personal" attack on either one of you -- if you want to take it as such, knock yourself out -- be my guest.

You need to only go back and read the original link in this thread for a simple form of "proof". The CHICOMS have DENIED that ANY American POW's were "in country" for the past 50 +/- years since the end of the "Forgotten War" ... and now ... when they "need" something -- perhaps a warm & fuzzy for the Olympics?? -- they are forthcoming w/ the patently obvious. You must be able to follow the tea leaves ...

Same for the North Vietnamese. They only spit out a few remains when it suits THEIR purposes.

I lost friends and classmates who were ultimately unaccounted for -- I will never "give up" nor "lose faith" in them nor demand "proof" which will never be forthcoming from any Communist enemy until there is a 100% accounting for each & every guy who had his name on a bracelet -- and for those who didn't.

P.S. ... O.J.'s not innocent.

P.P.S. ... time for Mai'Tai's.

 

[HH-60H]

I have some information on what happened to Speicher and where they think he is now. I know the guys that were on the ship with him and the one who saw him go down. If you get into that it's real interesting stuff. Screwed the pooch HARD on that one. From what I have been told they think there is a possibility that he is in Syria.(That's not confirmed though) If he's still alive.

You've really overstepped your bounds.

 

[Bevo16]

Both of you are coming at this question from the WRONG perspective. You require "proof" before you can/will move -- which points to your lack of experience w/ the Communist or Oriental mindset for frame of reference, your ultra conservative approach to the question, and your innate timidity in aggressively pursing the issue. Not a personal criticism, per se -- so don't get all hot & sweaty-- but rather consider it an opportunity for expanding your horizons.

Bevo -- thanks for your offer of "help", but my sources and personal contacts in the POW/MIA "search" go far, far above either your or Flash's pay grades. Granted ... the trail has grown cold for me w/ the passage of time and my own personal life has moved on -- for better or for worse. I have been out of the "direct" POW/MIA loop for more than a couple of years -- but at the time suffice it to say it conjoined w/ the "highest" levels of more than two government agencies that were intimately involved in the question as well as more than a few well heeled private concerns. BUPERS -- ??? --- I laugh: BUPERS was just one of the minor recipients of anything -- certainly not one of the players. BUPERS had ME classified as MIA for 4 years .... but I still got paid. Just no promotions.

A4's,

Don't lump me in with Flash on this. The way you keep up with things here, you know that common ground is not something that we share.

What you seem to think you know about me is pretty far from the mark. Nobody that I know of is sitting around waiting to move. They are pretty much on the ball. OBTW, "innate timidity" and the approach that I take to my job do not go together. Sorry brother, but your bombs are way off target here.

 

[S.O.B.]

Navy to again review Speicher case

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2008/10/navy_speicher_101408/

 

[SkywardET]

Good news. On a personal level, finding closure is more important than perceived, I think.

 

[m0tbaillie]

This is interesting. I remember my dad telling me that he worked in the same officer as Speicher when he enlisted in '83.

I wonder why kind of evidence they must keep finding to keep this case open for all of these years? I remember reading an article shortly after the 2003 invasion of Iraq about somebody supposedly finding a cut-up flight suit and Speicher's initials carved into a jail cell somewhere. I also thought I remembered them finding bones that may or may not have been his. Very interesting stuff indeed.

 

[Flash]

I wonder why kind of evidence they must keep finding to keep this case open for all of these years? I remember reading an article shortly after the 2003 invasion of Iraq about somebody supposedly finding a cut-up flight suit and Speicher's initials carved into a jail cell somewhere. I also thought I remembered them finding bones that may or may not have been his. Very interesting stuff indeed.

Not necessarily new, possibly just looked at with fresh eyes.

IIRC, the flight suit was handed over by the Iraqis several years before the invasion and the 'carving' on the prison wall was open to interpretation (not all his initials I believe).

 

[stalk]

I really hope there is some new evidence to give Spike's kids closure. He was a good friend, neighbor and a great Naval Aviator.

 

[HeyJoe]

New info to be revealed in latest review of Speicher case?? POW/MIA/KIA?

LCDR Scott Speicher's VF-81 F/A-18 was lost over Iraq in confusing circumstances and he was initially declared KIA and the loss attributed to a SA-2 Surface-to-Air Missile (SAM). However, it was later determined that his F/A-18 was struck by an air-to-air missile fired by a MiG-25 Foxbat and although a fireball was seen by a squadronmate, his aircraft was found missing its ejection seat. Subsequently, his status was upgraded to MIA. His status has been changed several times since then. An extensive search was conducted for him during OIF yet no conclusive evidence has emerged as to his fate/status.

Outgoing SECNAV called for a review of the Speicher case based on fresh information on whether he was captured or not during his ill-fated flight in Desert Storm and what may have happened to him afterwards. Several news sources are reporting on Monday's Review Board.

Note: Speicher has been promoted IAW promotion policy governing POW/MIA personnel and is now referred to as CAPT Scott Speicher.