POWs unacknowledged in China, Libya and Laos?

[A4sForever]

[FONT=Verdana,Sans-serif]AP: China admits taking, burying US POW[/FONT]

Gee ... Communist China admits to having held US POW's.

What a surprise.

And there's more where [FONT=Verdana,Sans-serif]Sgt. Desautels [/FONT]came from ... complete POW/MIA accountability at the end of every conflict being one of the greatest disgraces and shortcomings -- repeated disgraces and shortcomings -- of our country.

Keep the faith ...

 

[Bevo16]

[FONT=Verdana,Sans-serif]AP: China admits taking, burying US POW[/FONT]

complete POW/MIA accountability at the end of every conflict being one of the greatest disgraces and shortcomings -- repeated disgraces and shortcomings -- of our country.

I respectfully disagree.

No other country in the world can match the efforts, past and present, to account for and recover the missing from our nation's wars. At this very second, the DOD is sponsoring the Southeast Asia Government Briefings is Washington DC. Every family member of a US Serviceman who was lost during the Vietnam War has been flown to Washington at the taxpayer's expense so they can meet one-on-one with the extensive team that works to find these men and bring them home.

In addition to these briefings, the Korea/Cold War briefings will be in October, and the DOD sponsors 10 "Family Updates" each year at different sites around the country. This allows the DOD experts a chance to go to the family members to brief them on their loved one's individual case.

Take a look at:

http://www.jpac.pacom.mil/

and

http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/

Those are your lead offices for the POW/MIA effort. In addition, each service maintains a POW/MIA section in their individual casualty offices. These guys are responsible for basically being a long term CACO for the family members. They also assist JPAC and DPMO in dealing with the family members and often deal directly with congress on MIA issues. Every Navy MIA dating back to the Civil War has an individual file at the casualty office. The Navy has, on average, 10+ MIA's returned per year. There are several identifications pending this year that may double that number.


In reference to the article that you linked, this is actually good news. Recovery operations for the Korean War have gotten very slow due to the simple fact that we have no access to North Korea. We know where many of the UN burial sites are, and where the prison camps were, but we can't get to them. Our relations with China are much better than North Korea. If it turns out that there are remains in that country, it will be a lot easier to conduct recovery operations at those sites and bring our guys home.

I could go on and on about the ongoing operations, but a lot of the information is in those web sites, and you can read it for yourself if you want.

 

[A4sForever]

I respectfully disagree. ....

Same here -- disagree -- and you're drinkin' the Kool Aid when you content yourself w/ the sources emanating from the very entity that cut our guys loose: official government feel-good smoke & mirrors. I'm quite familiar w/ JPAC and their operations for a variety of reasons. The individuals involved do some good and are well-intentioned, but the rest .... ??

The remains of one of my former squadron's crews were only discovered by the personal efforts of the guys who came home -- not the government.

We knowingly left POW's behind @ the end of the Vietnam conflict, just to name one war.

 

[Bevo16]

Same here -- disagree -- and you're drinkin' the Kool Aid when you content yourself w/ the sources emanating from the very entity that cut our guys loose: official government feel-good smoke & mirrors. I'm quite familiar w/ JPAC and their operations for a variety of reasons. The individuals involved do some good and are well-intentioned, but the rest .... ??

The remains of one of my former squadron's crews were only discovered by the personal efforts of the guys who came home -- not the government.

We knowingly left POW's behind @ the end of the Vietnam conflict, just to name one war.

A4's,

I would love to hear some kind of evidence to back up that final statement. I am pretty close to this operation, and I have never seen anything to suggest that anyone on an MIA list was in POW status at the end of the war. These claims have had a high level of visibility and were investigated at the highest levels. Nothing to support those claims has ever turned up. Every "live sighting" report turned out to be one of the more than 300 American deserters who opted to stay in Vietnam after the war, Russian "technicans" mistaken for Americans, or outright scams by Cambodian officals. There has also been speculation that rumors of rewards for turning over American POW's were created so that they would turn over some of the deserters.

If you know something or know someone who does, I would be happy to talk about it in an official capacity. You can PM me for contact information, but you may already have my work e-mail.

FYI, I can't stand "cool-aid", and I grew up on a ranch so my bullshit detector is pretty well calibrated.

 

[voodooqueen]

It was only a recently that a relatively small forensic team of vets was allowed to excavate the bones of some of those who died in Viet Nam. These guys tested the DNA and did what they could so that the dead could be returned to their loved ones. (One of my friends went--a Navy vet.)

My first question to him was how many of these guys were alive for years before they were finally retrieved when it was too late?

 

[HAL Pilot]

Bevo,

I have to agree with A4s on this one.

My cousin (2nd cousin actually) was CDR Harley Hall, former Blue Angle 1 and the last Navy guy shot down in Viet Nam 14 hours before the cease fire. He was seen alive and upright on the ground being captured but never returned. They told his RIO that they had violated the cease fire, were war criminals, and would not be returned with the POWs. Luckily, the RIO was seen by other POWs and he was released. Years later, Harley's wife got a couple of bone fragments that were supposedly his as identified by the U.S. military agencies. Her experts tested the bones and say they're not.

We left a lot unaccounted for in the name of ending the war and placating public opinion.

 

[Flash]

I have to agree with Bevo on this. I find it very hard to believe that the personnel who have worked in JPAC and the other places that try and track POW/MIA's are all a smokescreen, or have helped perpetrate what would be a horrible fraud on the American public and the POW/MIA families (that would also include Congress and the Executive Branch officials as well). From what I have seen, Bevo is right on about the accounting for the Vietnam-era POW's. As far as I know, there has not been one verified piece of evidence that has shown that Vietnam, Vietcong, Pathet Lao, the PRC or anyone else kept POW's after the armistice. There are still some unanswered questions about some taken during the Korean War and during the Cold War, but the Vietnam War MIA's have been thoroughly investigated, with only remains recovered.

A retired Army Colonel who was involved in POW/MIA efforts set up a website to debunk some myths. His tone is a bit sharp, but it is an interesting perspective:

http://www.miafacts.org/

 

[Catmando]

This sad debate has raged for decades.

The respected POW Network website has a wealth of information indicating some POW's were left behind. You must dig for the information, but it's there, lots of it, and from some very reputable sources. Or read about the "copper-stained skeleton" there.
http://www.pownetwork.org/pownet.secure.2/hank_holzer_november_2007.pdf

I sincerely hope none of this is true; but I have long feared that some of it is indeed true.

 

[Zissou]

Until we have 100% accountability? We have failed.

 

[LazersGoPEWPEW]

I have some information on what happened to Speicher and where they think he is now. I know the guys that were on the ship with him and the one who saw him go down. If you get into reading about the incident and all the stuff occurring in the aftermath it's interesting stuff. Screwed the pooch HARD on that one. From what I have been told they think there is a possibility that he is in Syria.(That's not confirmed though) If he's still alive.

 

[Zissou]

I'll leave his status to the many diligent people still working on his behalf.

 

[Steve Davies]

If you want a good example of a missing airman the US government has been interminably slow to even attempt to account for, look no further than Capt. Paul Lorence, an F-111F WSO from the 48th TFW who was shot down on April 14, 1986 off the coast of Libya.

America's attempts to account for Lorence have been pitiful at best, much to the disgust of his family.

 

[eddie]

Bevo,

Are you saying we a phenomenal job at this, or that we do a better job than anyone else? Both?

 

[Bevo16]

Until we have 100% accountability? We have failed.

I think that I know what you mean, but I a better way to say it is that "Until we have 100% accountability, we will not rest." We will have failed if we quit.

That is why we are busting our ass sending mitochondrial DNA kits to every maternal family member of missing service members. That's why we have hundreds of DOD members trained and out in the field digging up crash sites and turning dirt in Korea looking for remains.

The US Government has done some pretty crappy things. Failure to respond to the P-2V shoot down in November of 1951 by the Soviet Union is one. Then there was Nixon sitting on his hands in April of 1969 when North Korea murdered the crew of a Navy EC-121 over the Sea of Japan. That's the tip of the iceberg.

Unfortunately, there are times where the truth hurts. Trust me when I tell you, that it's not fun to sit across the table from the family of a deserter and explain the facts of the case. Same deal trying to explain to a pilot that his RIO did not come back because he decided not to. "But he would never do that." Ok, he is a free man and could have come back in 1975 under the amnesty program, and he didn't. Explain that.

People are very passionate about this issue, for good reason. If there is a more blinding emotion than passion, I don't know what it is.

Like I told A4's, I would be happy to discuss an issue with someone in an official capacity if they have information, I would love to hear it. If someone wants information on a former squadron mate, let me know and I'll check the McCain status on the file. You have to be really careful of the sources of information on this subject. There is a lot of bad information out there in addition to some real nutball conspiracy theorists and fakes.

I do know one thing for sure: If you go missing, people are going to come looking for you.

 

[Bevo16]

Bevo,

Are you saying we a phenomenal job at this, or that we do a better job than anyone else? Both?

Both.

Until I started working my current job, I had no idea how extensive the efforts are. In some cases, I think that we are even going to far. That's an off-line discussion.