By all means, let's take our cues on morality and how to treat our people from the Chinese, Russian, and Iranian governments. Please continue, Comrade.
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VQ Hinge Charged with Espionage
- Thread starter azguy
- Start date
Enlisting as a foreign national is a well worn path to citizenship. MANY foreign nationals have served honorably and used their service as a way to become a US citizen. It's less common in the squadron because of the need for security clearance but I had many ABs who weren't US citizens. I served with a lot of Filipino sailors and also had a smattering from other places such as Africa, the Caribbean, etc. I attended the citizenship ceremony of several of my Sailors and it was a great honor to see them become Americans.
My argument is that, at the very least, citizenship should to be required to serve in an operational/sensitive job. Sorry if that hurts your feelings.
Did you even read my post? I wasn't disputing citizenship for a clearance. I was disputing automatically disqualifying AMAN Zhe from service if all he's going to do is bend Grumman iron with no clearance.
Now that that's out of the way, we can discuss why you think that opposing arguments can only be caused by "hurt feelings," and not potentially legitimate differences of opinion.
BenDog
Active Member
I am fairly certain that he would have done the things the Navy asked him to do. As to the disposition of AMAN Zhe, I do not know.
The decision to remove him from a command that had a sensitive mission went way beyond my pay grade.
I think it's you that didn't read my post. Using similar OPSEC practices to China or Iran doesn't mean that we're communists as your below post implies.
OK...but what about being granted citizenship magically makes someone more trustworthy to be in an operational unit in a position that doesn't require a clearance? The process of going from being a green card holder to a citizen isn't some incredible transformation where you are injected with 'Murica loving freedom blood.
Btw, infantry and armor MOSs don't require clearances...if somebody loves America enough to have THAT be their path to citizenship, I'm all for it.
Same goes for being a deck seaman now that I think about it.
Because following that path to its logical conclusion, any naturalized citizens of Iranian, Chinese, or Russian ancestry should be automatic down checks for any clearance.
While we're at it, throw in Taiwan, either Korea, maybe even Japan, certainly any former Soviet Union state, just about all of the Middle East, Pakistan, etc.
It doesn't, but they now meet the basic requirements for a clearance. Those people will then be subject to the appropriate level of scrutiny. It's an arbitrary rule. When Seaman Timmy turns 21, he's not magically more responsible, but he can now legally drink. There are consequences for Timmy is he mishandles either situation.
It is also now the shortest, there used to be a waiting period for folks who enlisted but now you can become a citizen after you graduate boot camp because we are in a 'specifically designated period of hostilities'.
I have served with more than a few folks who gained their citizenship through enlisting to include a guy who had been an Ethiopian MIG-21 pilot who defected to Yemen in the 80's. A tiny handful of bad apples shouldn't ruin it for the thousands of folks who have served this country honorably.
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Well this may be the dumbest post today. ^
I've served with many people who used to be from former protectorates/states of the USSR (Ukraine in particular) and many a linguist from the smattering of countries you have listed. Your blunt lumping of everyone into a Fifth Column group due to their birth country (or that of their parents) smacks of the post Pearl Harbor mindset that led to the unconstitutional roundup of the Issei and Nissei and their internment.
We are all individuals. We all make decisions based on many things in our lives (to include upbringing) but place of birth doesn't exactly ring as the most influential.
Shit, the Rosenbergs were from New York. Bradley Manning was from Oklahoma.
How about we continue to treat people like individuals and stop treating them as a group.
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It's not like those who are born in America are somehow immune to security misbehavior. Two of the largest security breaches in recent history were perpetrated by birth Americans: Manning and Snowden.
In addition, as others have pointed out, there have been plenty of significant contributions to the US and National Security from foreign born citizens with security clearances to say nothing of the immeasurable day to day contributions of numerous naturalized citizens.
Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to the problem. Leaders have to use all the tools at their disposal to include their judgment in the determination of whether someone should get or keep a clearance. Birth location is but on factor in a complicated calculus that must include other factors such as debt, foreign contacts, etc.
Spies and their business of espionage are by their very nature sneaky and deceitful. People can easily lie during the clearance process as to their motivations and motivations can change in between investigations.
Greater scrutiny during investigations, you know something that resembles profiling.....gasp..... A security clearance (or a government job for that matter) is a privilege, not a right; if you apply for one, then you accept opening yourself to a greater level of scrutiny and background probing that you get now. Will that catch d-bags (allegedly) like Lin? It doesn't guarantee it, but watch the 60 Minutes clip and tell me what you think after hearing about how Snowden and Manning got investigated...
Dude.
I was being sarcastic to point out how ridiculous that line of reasoning could become.
I'm foreign born with non-citizen parents and I have a TS.
I'm very much in favor of treating people on a case by case basis.