Selection out of Primary/Advanced

[BACONATOR]

Harrier and Gator,

I totally agree with the replies you both gave. I guess because it was not the marks and comments I had been receiving previously I discounted it as more of a stan issue. Who knows I could have needed the kick in the nuts, but after talking to some students who flew the same flight that night it seemed as if I was being nailed on things that weren't even considered in their flights or their IP backed them up on some things without question and didn't dock them for it. This was just meant to reinforce Otto's point about stan problems.

To me this contributes to the problem of a lack of understanding of your performance. If your IPs consistently say "Good job", "Good progress", "Solid hop" etc etc etc, but you end up with a 40 NSS, then how the hell would you know you need to work harder? Granted, you should bust your ass as hard as you can in primary (and flight school in general) but if you have an idea that you're NSS is in the 70's (just an example), then you're not hurting to study harder or put more time in. If that expectation ends up being false and you have an NSS in the 40s when you expected 60s, you have a problem.

I think debriefs, gradesheets and IP comments should really reflect the student's performance relative to his peers.

I had a rough idea what my NSS was going to be before I finished, but that was only comparing my GPAs for various blocks with a couple other studs. Had I relied solely on my gradesheets and overall consensus of IP commentary, I'd have guessed it was maybe 8-10 points higher than it turned out to be.

 

[kmac]

I think debriefs, gradesheets and IP comments should really reflect the student's performance relative to his peers.

I had a rough idea what my NSS was going to be before I finished, but that was only comparing my GPAs for various blocks with a couple other studs. Had I relied solely on my gradesheets and overall consensus of IP commentary, I'd have guessed it was maybe 8-10 points higher than it turned out to be.

You are misunderstanding what we grade you on: CTS. It is not how you compare to other students. If you don't like hearing "good progress" then you better strive for "excellent progress." It has and should be your responsibility to see how you're doing compared to other students. Remember that this is MPTS and not the old system of below, average, and above. Even with this new system of providing an NSS for each block, it's not going to tell you much more than you already known based on the score comparison. All the new system is doing is taking those scores and standardizing them like it does when you are finally complete. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that if your score is 1.06 and the average is 1.05, you're pretty average. If you rock a 1.26 and the average is 1.05.... guess what, you're above average. You don't need an NSS to tell you that.*

*One can argue that the sample size is much less for the monthly average of a block compared with the previous 60 students. True statement. But the deviation is probably not going to be huge and comparisons will still work for seeing where you fall.

 

[bert]

I think debriefs, gradesheets and IP comments should really reflect the student's performance relative to his peers.

I don't instruct anymore and won't again, so I feel like I can inject a little painful reality into this situation. This may piss off some cones now, but if they ever become instructors themselves they will realize it is true (this is geared towards helo advanced and the FRS, but others can chime in if it is still true elsewhere):

We only really remember the very good and very poor students. If you are around the average and knew what you were supposed to in the brief then within 5 minutes of you walking out of the bird and one just like you walking in we probably don't remember anything other than what we managed to scribble on our kneeboard. Remember, your instructors might be doing 2 or 3 FAM hops a day - and not getting to the gradesheets until later on. Also, at the end of 6 hours in the pattern with various students, your instructor probably just wants to go home get a shower and actually see his family - which may limit his ability to focus fully on your desire to get an exact appraisal of your performance. Don't take it personally, and like somebody said above, rock the brief and start out on the right foot.

 

[Gatordev]

Harrier and Gator,

I totally agree with the replies you both gave. I guess because it was not the marks and comments I had been receiving previously I discounted it as more of a stan issue. Who knows I could have needed the kick in the nuts, but after talking to some students who flew the same flight that night it seemed as if I was being nailed on things that weren't even considered in their flights or their IP backed them up on some things without question and didn't dock them for it. This was just meant to reinforce Otto's point about stan problems.

But....if that IP regularly behaves that way in the aircraft, then everyone who flies with him would be graded similarly. Maybe your buds got Santa Claus and you didn't. Tough break, life goes on.

When I was in Primary, I can honestly say I didn't really worry about NSS or GPA and I did pretty well. The only thing I cared about was how I was doing based off previous events and if I was making at least better than MIF or a 4 on the first flight in a block. If I didn't it irritated me. However, one day I had a Form out and in. They were long flights on a hot, bumpy day. It sucked and I wasn't landing like I normally did and my airwork wasn't like I was used to (and my grades indicated). When we got back, the IP told me all of the above and that I might have a problem if I went jets. I wasn't really sure I even wanted jets, but it just pissed me off that he didn't see how I normally perform.

I don't know if the flight was really as bad as he said (he was a former P-3 dude and reservist who didn't come around very often), but hey, debrief done, move on and crush the checkride. Maybe you had a similar experience, it just happened to be on your last flight(s). Obviously we're only hearing one side of the story, but I don't see a huge Stan issue here, unlike other stories that are told on the forums, but that's just me. Let it go and enjoy the fact that you're still going to your (presumably) first choice and flying jets.

 

[Flying Low]

We only really remember the very good and very poor students.

+1. We do remember more then just the good and bad sometimes, but when I write a grade sheet I want a guy who either sucked or rocked. If he just had an "Average" flight then there is not a whole lot to comment on.

You would also be surprised how some SNA's remember the flight different then the IP. I would tell them the things they did wrong in the debrief and they would say they didn't do it. I have had guys disagree when I gave then a Marginal and then watch them unsat their next flight. Sometimes as studs your perception is not reality.

 

[SDNalgene]

Sometimes as studs your perception is not reality.

For all the bitching about grades that occurs, and I certainly have been guilty of it, mainly in the sims, very rarely do I feel like I have been graded worse than I deserved. To be honest, the number of times I have gotten an above (or a 5 in primary) when I didn't really earn it vastly outnumber the times I have gotten screwed. Rock some knowledge, demonstrate a little bit of SA, you know, dazzle 'em with bullshit, and on more than one occasion I have seen sins forgiven on the grade sheet. I would far rather be unjustly graded a few times than see all the generosity of instructors thrown out the window and be graded strictly by the book. You broke MDA by 40 feet, unsafe, take your pink sheet. No thank you.

My only real bitch on grades is if an instructor gives you grades that are below average (and when the squadron average in a stage is just under an above a flight, getting "averaged out" is below the real average) and doesn't explain to you why you got pinged a bit and how to improve your grades. That isn't a stan issue though; it's a quality of debrief issue. Telling me "good, average hop, have a nice day" doesn't help me when I need to get 4 more aboves in 5 events to keep pace. Minor annoyance only, and in advanced I have only seen it in the sims.

I felt the same way in primary with regard to your MIF ratio. Occasionally I had events where I would get good comments and decent grades, but who cares that I beat MIF with a 1.05 when the average for the block is a 1.15. When that happened I was falling behind, but not getting any feedback that I needed to do better until I would go look at the numbers in STUCON, and even once I knew I still wasn't getting feedback on how to improve. I don't know how aware instructors are of what the average ratio is for each block. Is that something that instructors ever look at, or do you just kinda know if a student is doing about how the normal ENS Joe Navy is doing?

 

[Gatordev]

I felt the same way in primary with regard to your MIF ratio. Occasionally I had events where I would get good comments and decent grades, but who cares that I beat MIF with a 1.05 when the average for the block is a 1.15. When that happened I was falling behind, but not getting any feedback that I needed to do better until I would go look at the numbers in STUCON, and even once I knew I still wasn't getting feedback on how to improve. I don't know how aware instructors are of what the average ratio is for each block. Is that something that instructors ever look at, or do you just kinda know if a student is doing about how the normal ENS Joe Navy is doing?

Honestly, I never cared what the ratio or average was. I graded off of CTS. If your grades "sucked" because of that, then I guess it comes down to timing, once again, since the average changes.

I had more of a response, but my office mate is annoying me....

 

[squeeze]

Maybe some of y'all should just suck less.

NATOPS clearly makes the assumption "The pilot shall be considered to have above average intelligence and normal (average) common sense."

Maybe you're just not there yet.

 

[FLYTPAY]

I had more of a response, but my office mate is annoying me....

Teabag his coffee cup.

"great event"=Average...get used to it and you will be pleasantly surprised when you get a bone as opposed to the bone

 

[Flying Low]

My motto is "If you want better grades, then don't suck."

 

[SDNalgene]

My motto is "If you want better grades, then don't suck."

Fair enough motto, though it helps if the instructor gives you insight in the debrief as to how to, in the words of Joboy, suck a little less each time. Something along the lines of, "you are doing decent/average/okay/crappy and here are a few areas you can work on that will help you up your performance, demonstrate some skill and SA, and maybe get you an above." "Try to suck less," doesn't really help.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Fair enough motto, though it helps if the instructor gives you insight in the debrief as to how to, in the words of Joboy, suck a little less each time. Something along the lines of, "you are doing decent/average/okay/crappy and here are a few areas you can work on that will help you up your performance, demonstrate some skill and SA, and maybe get you an above." "Try to suck less," doesn't really help.

I guess I got lucky w/ my IP........though of course you know when you get on deck what you sucked at, like you say it is helpful to hear from the instructor how you can improve. Having an IP who pushes you to perform above MIF, or above average (either way) rather than just being happy to sign you off on an "average/good" hop has probably been the most helpful thing for me so far. If I get a 4 in something, you know "hey good on this, but here is how you can get the 5 next time".....and then he is really looking for me to show that kind of improvement by the next hop. On the flip side, if I'm hitting only MIF on something, it's a quieter walk back to gear issue, and it's clear in the debrief......though I think in this case the CTS really makes it self explanatory about how to improve. Of course outstanding grades don't always work out, but IMHO keeping the carrot out there at an attainable distance is a good motivator, at least for me.

 

[Flying Low]

" "Try to suck less," doesn't really help.

That's just easier to say then "You got off alt by 150 feet 3 times, you got off hdg 4 times, once by 20 degrees, you need to work on your radio calls, how are you studying, are you chair flying?, etc etc"

Below is is not directed at SDNalgene

Seriously I do think a good debrief is important. Have you ever tried to critique yourself? After the flight write down all the things that could be improved. You know when you were off alt, you know that you were behind on the Oscar pattern, etc. If you get the suck less debrief then ask how to suck less. Most IP's will take the time to explain it to you or show you. I would even do this in the aircraft. You setup for the VOR A sucked, then ask how it can be better.

 

[Gatordev]

Seriously I do think a good debrief is important. Have you ever tried to critique yourself? After the flight write down all the things that could be improved. You know when you were off alt, you know that you were behind on the Oscar pattern, etc. If you get the suck less debrief then ask how to suck less. Most IP's will take the time to explain it to you or show you. I would even do this in the aircraft. You setup for the VOR A sucked, then ask how it can be better.

I've flown with several studs who did this. They were either prior aircrew or NFO retreads (or more motivated IUTs), but they would write up what they thought while waiting for me to do the gradesheet. When I got back for the debrief, I'd run through what I had and then, depending on how they wanted to do it, would either run through their items (which might be the same thing...these were usually the TACAIR guys) or would agree w/ what I had and only cover questions/items I may not have covered.

It's a great technique, but it does require some existing knowledge to do. Maybe not easy for a new SNA in early FAMs, but certainly something to consider later on.

 

[Ducky]

I couldn't agree more with the suck less do better moto. If I was getting 3s and 4s I never settled for that even if it was above mif. Every minute of every flight I was striving for that 5 in every block. This idea of never being satisfied kept me in the books and chairflying the hell out of my flights. Thats why I was so pissed about the flight discussed earlier in this thread.

The complete lack of critique in the aircraft led me to believe everything was going extremely well. Furthermore, with no critiques in between flights on an out and in, how in the world is the student supposed to improve on the second flight? When I say complete lack of critique I mean nothing was discussed until I requested a debrief at a later time. Students have no way of improving if they are not told where they suck.

I also wish to emphasize that this was an isolated example and in no way reflects the the quality and effort of 99.5% of the VT instructors I have flown with.