Everyday you've always got to think about the next day. You dont live 1 day at a time, you live 2 or 3 days at a time. What I'm saying is, once you get to primary, you dont actually have enough time to worry about your NSS, so you dont worry about it. All these people that want to how it works have a ways to get yet before they even start flight school, you can tell because they have the time to worry, and they have the time to post on AW
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NSS Facts
- Thread starter Heloanjin
- Start date
Actually I select next week...and yes I worry about my NSS and yes I like to understand something that controls what I am going to be doing for the next 10 years...flight school is hard but I still have time to think about other things.
I wish Myth Busters would do a show on NSS-isms…
Anyway, I don’t see why some people get bent out of shape if a guy/gal wants to know how the system works. I say why not? It is the system you are forced to live in so I would think you want to be as educated as possible about it, no?
Can you change it much? No, you have very little input. You can control some very small things besides just your flying. Although that is taboo to say. And when you get done and your NSS drops 17 points or whatever the delta happens to be, if you actually understand the system, maybe it won’t be such a shock. Personally, I don’t like surprises like that. So if you don’t want to be wrapped up about how the system you are subjected to works, fine. I know I wanted to know.
The PC answer is and probably always has been, “Just do your best!!!!!!!”
Yay!!!!! How nice. But I still want to know why some dude who selected the week before me and was a total ham-fisted flyer had 12 points added on to his NSS. Or vice versa. I also want to know why it is better to have fewer items graded on a flight in MPTS, or how the squadron average is going to affect me. Like I said earlier, there are some minor things you can affect.
I didn’t have a total zen understanding of the MPTS NSS system, but I tried to get a good understanding of it. And although it didn’t really change anything, I’m glad I at least had a tiny understanding if the system that was dictating my fate.
And when people start giving you crap about wanting to understand the grading system because having the knowledge won’t change anything, ask them how useful it is to their flying to know where the AC compressor is in the T-34 engine bay.
Moving on….
In primary there is just the MPTS system (if Vance uses it, too). But in advanced there are still different grading systems. And in Jets, you can attrite based on NSS. You can say it is really the recommendation of the CO or whatever all you want, but a low NSS will not be kept, even if the instructors say he gets what is going on. On the Marine side they will boot a 34.X at the end of advanced. Sounds silly, but it is true.
Can’t speak to Helo land, or Props.
BUT I realize this is in the primary forum, so feel free to disregard my last…
Anyway, I don’t see why some people get bent out of shape if a guy/gal wants to know how the system works. I say why not? It is the system you are forced to live in so I would think you want to be as educated as possible about it, no?
Can you change it much? No, you have very little input. You can control some very small things besides just your flying. Although that is taboo to say. And when you get done and your NSS drops 17 points or whatever the delta happens to be, if you actually understand the system, maybe it won’t be such a shock. Personally, I don’t like surprises like that. So if you don’t want to be wrapped up about how the system you are subjected to works, fine. I know I wanted to know.
The PC answer is and probably always has been, “Just do your best!!!!!!!”
Yay!!!!! How nice. But I still want to know why some dude who selected the week before me and was a total ham-fisted flyer had 12 points added on to his NSS. Or vice versa. I also want to know why it is better to have fewer items graded on a flight in MPTS, or how the squadron average is going to affect me. Like I said earlier, there are some minor things you can affect.
I didn’t have a total zen understanding of the MPTS NSS system, but I tried to get a good understanding of it. And although it didn’t really change anything, I’m glad I at least had a tiny understanding if the system that was dictating my fate.
And when people start giving you crap about wanting to understand the grading system because having the knowledge won’t change anything, ask them how useful it is to their flying to know where the AC compressor is in the T-34 engine bay.
Moving on….
In primary there is just the MPTS system (if Vance uses it, too). But in advanced there are still different grading systems. And in Jets, you can attrite based on NSS. You can say it is really the recommendation of the CO or whatever all you want, but a low NSS will not be kept, even if the instructors say he gets what is going on. On the Marine side they will boot a 34.X at the end of advanced. Sounds silly, but it is true.
Can’t speak to Helo land, or Props.
BUT I realize this is in the primary forum, so feel free to disregard my last…
I totally agree. Know your Enemy! (Or atleast know who you are fighting...So to speak)
Could someone explain this whole thing about "having fewer items graded...". You can request to not do a flight or maneuver, or be graded on one??? Doesn't really sound logit.
Since you average is figured out by taking the MIF (required score for every maneuver, those required scores go up for certain maneuvers as you go along) total and dividing the student's total by it. So you add up all the scores you got (2-5 on the MIF system, 5 being the best) and divide by the required score for all the items you did. Basically the trend works that
the more items you throw into the equation the closer to 1.0 the final answer gets because you are going to have more maneuvers you just get MIF'd on (gradesheet requires a 3, IP gives you a 3).
the more items you throw into the equation the closer to 1.0 the final answer gets because you are going to have more maneuvers you just get MIF'd on (gradesheet requires a 3, IP gives you a 3).
Thanks for you input "60B Rotorhead". I was really asking more about the fact that some people here are saying that you can have a maneuver or flight NOT graded. That sounds a little unorthodox to me. You can pick and choose what you want to be graded?
Also...The gradesheet is like your score sheet (with comments) of and after your flight/sim/test/etc...? What is an IP (Instructor Pilot or something lol)? Thanks again
Also...The gradesheet is like your score sheet (with comments) of and after your flight/sim/test/etc...? What is an IP (Instructor Pilot or something lol)? Thanks again
I think the issue is the endless obsessing about it. Sure, having an understanding about it is good, but the thing that gets old is when people who regularly deal with the system explain things about the system and how it works, and the people that obsess about it want to continue to complain or ignore the information given. The perfect example is complaining about the lack of 5s. It's been explained numerous times that 5's are not what make an NSS, it's how quick you get to MIF. And yet, people continue to lament their lack of 5's.
Come on, do you really want to get into that kind of argument? Okay, I'll bite...when I had smoke pouring out of the left side of my engine one day, but no fire light, I was perplexed. After landing, and seeing the problem was my AC compressor, I now know that if I have smoke coming from the side of my AC compressor and no firelight, it might be the same problem and not to immediately jump out of the airplane.
I understand the point you're getting at, and I know I'm taking it too literally, but my point is sometimes there are bigger things at work.
This is where the endless obsessing becomes the issue. YOU have no say on whether a particular item gets graded or not. It's up the IP (yes, Instructor Pilot) and MPTS. So trying to game the system that way is just wasted energy.
So you CANNOT say, "don't grade this"? If so, I thought it sounded a little out there in left field for the military, giving students that kind of power. Even if you could, I doubt I would ever NOT have something graded. All through school, when given certain choices to take "another test" or "do another homework assignment" I have always been one for voting FOR the decision.
I agree with most of what you said, but you are still looking at it as an IP and I as a fairly recent primary student.
Obsessing is one thing, and I think we can all agree on not doing that (especially in Primary). But often studs are brow-beaten by IP’s or other studs for just trying to figure out how the system even works. . .like in many of the above posts. I don’t doubt that it gets real old real quick as the IP explaining the same things over and over about the grading system…or on how to fly form, for that matter
Maybe there should be a 15 minute lecture on NSS when the studs pick-up? Lord knows we got lectured on everything else. And that would be a lecture people actually WANT to learn from.
A question for you, though, if I may: Do most of the Primary IP’s have a good understanding of the NSS system, or is it sort of gouge-based like for the students?
(I ask because in Advanced, many IP’s don’t have a real good lock on how the NSS is affected. I have heard some incorrect gouge from IP’s about how the NSS is affected by grades here, and there is a LOT more gray area here than in MPTS to help or hurt the stud.)
The getting to MIF faster thing was something I learned from my prying into the NSS system gouge. That was always my goal for that reason. I didn’t aim for the 5, I just wanted to be at or over MIF ASAP on all items possible. So maybe if people knew more about the system they might have the same attitude. And then you wouldn’t have to think about bailing out while your stud is giving you seventy 15 minute reports (for the 5, you know), then almost killing you in the pattern on every T+G….haha. OK, that might be a little optimistic.
And I know you were playing devils advocate a little with the scenario involving the AC compressor, so I will too—just for funzies. In that situation you decided to land, not knowing the problem for sure. If you had similar symptoms, you would probably take the same actions again…so knowing what the problem might or might not be might not change what you do. You would have more knowledge, but not really any more recourse, no? Kind of like a stud might or might not pick a particular instructor to go on the road with if he knows how the system works and what he needs…
But I think we can both agree we see each other’s point there.
Obsessing is one thing, and I think we can all agree on not doing that (especially in Primary). But often studs are brow-beaten by IP’s or other studs for just trying to figure out how the system even works. . .like in many of the above posts. I don’t doubt that it gets real old real quick as the IP explaining the same things over and over about the grading system…or on how to fly form, for that matter
Maybe there should be a 15 minute lecture on NSS when the studs pick-up? Lord knows we got lectured on everything else. And that would be a lecture people actually WANT to learn from.
A question for you, though, if I may: Do most of the Primary IP’s have a good understanding of the NSS system, or is it sort of gouge-based like for the students?
(I ask because in Advanced, many IP’s don’t have a real good lock on how the NSS is affected. I have heard some incorrect gouge from IP’s about how the NSS is affected by grades here, and there is a LOT more gray area here than in MPTS to help or hurt the stud.)
The getting to MIF faster thing was something I learned from my prying into the NSS system gouge. That was always my goal for that reason. I didn’t aim for the 5, I just wanted to be at or over MIF ASAP on all items possible. So maybe if people knew more about the system they might have the same attitude. And then you wouldn’t have to think about bailing out while your stud is giving you seventy 15 minute reports (for the 5, you know), then almost killing you in the pattern on every T+G….haha. OK, that might be a little optimistic.
And I know you were playing devils advocate a little with the scenario involving the AC compressor, so I will too—just for funzies. In that situation you decided to land, not knowing the problem for sure. If you had similar symptoms, you would probably take the same actions again…so knowing what the problem might or might not be might not change what you do. You would have more knowledge, but not really any more recourse, no? Kind of like a stud might or might not pick a particular instructor to go on the road with if he knows how the system works and what he needs…
But I think we can both agree we see each other’s point there.
Add-on: that first line seems to me like it could read a little bit offensive, and it wasn't meant to at all.
YES! I couldn't agree more.
If you're gonna obsess over something, obsess over something useful. And by useful I mean something that's gonna keep you from getting killed. In the end, no one cares that you know exactly how NSS is calculated (maybe because you're good with numbers they'll put you to work on the NAVRIIP stuff). But a lot of people are going to care about your knowledge of systems, procedures, and the fact that you know every line from "grandma's boy."
Yeah, I think we're on the same page. During Fam 0's for my on-wings, I always gave a quick explanation/overview of how it works, just to let them know. I never sat through a MPTS brief when studs check in, so not sure what they were being told in my squadron, but they do get some info on it, but perhaps not enough. Honestly, though, you can tell some studs all the info they ask for, and they'll still obsess, and yes, even whine, about the grades because it's something to do, and that's when it gets old (both here and in real life).
When I was a student, I honestly didn't care about the NSS, but I did care about getting a 5 on every maneuver, not that I did. It wasn't about getting a high NSS, just my obsessive compulsion to do it "better than average," and in my head, a 4 was average, even though it's not in reality.
As for IP's and MPTS, it's kind of a combo of gouge and knowing the book. The gouge part comes from talking w/ Ops Admin from week to week and seeing studs come through and then where they fall out. At least that's my experience. Maybe E6B has another viewpoint.
As for the AC compressor, it still might mean the difference between being stuck at Summerdale or being "stuck" at Barin. In a perfect world, I'll take Barin over Summerdale anyday.
We had MPTS at Vance, and I'll go ahead and throw my input in on the graded items thing, though I haven't read but a couple posts in this thread. When I was at Vance, I was told by the outgoing class, "do as many maneuvers as you can on a flight, and do them well, because the more graded items you have on a flight, the better your overall score will be, ie more 5's and 4's than the next guy." How can you do this, and how did I do it EVERY chance I got. For instance, Fam's.....or Contact for the AF folks. You do Aerobatics. You learn like 4 or 5 of the basic ones, and then learn one advanced one per flight after that. I just had my IP show me all of them that we had gas for, and the next flight, I demonstrated all the ones I knew to my IP, and once I knew them all, I did every one EVERY flight, though they weren't required. I also spun, EVERY flight, though spinning was only required every 3rd flight after a certain point. I got more graded items than brand x guy did, it helped.