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Jon Stewart

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perchul

Registered User
Your going to provide some reasoning to why Micheal Moore is a disgrace? Yeah the whole shame on you speech was lame but the conclusion that Micheal Moore reached in Bowling for Colombine was elegant. The man isn't always right but he has made some fine points in his time to call him a disgrace makes me doubt you've ever watched any of his documentaries, and why you wrote documentary in quotes is beyond me...are you saying the film was something other then that...and if you did watch it I'm interested in what you think his conclusion was.
 

jdfairman

PHROGS 4EVER
I haven't yet seen the "Bowling for Columbine" flick. I saw the previews for it, and from the previews it looked like it was extremely pro-gun control. Of course, this was while I was making my way to my seat and passing my wife and friends their popcorn, candies, sodas and various other geedunk. I live to shoot, so it didn't look like something I'd enjoy. I might be wrong about this. You've seen it Perchul?
 

kimphil

Registered User
Originally posted by Daedalus
Room you should stick to the philosophy.
Why did the USSR fail, why is China moving to a capitalist economy, why is North Korea starving, why are Cubans driving 50 yr old cars, why does France have 12% unemployment?

Why did the USSR fail? The Cold War, wasting there money on a showdown with the United States that never materialized. Were the Soviets evil capitalists, instead of socialists, the outcome may very well have been the same.

Why is North Korea starving? It's run by an evil dictator, cut off from global trade.

Why are Cubans driving 50 yr old cars? Because they want to. It's part of their culture. Seriously, I was in Cuba last year and there are plenty of new cars, a few German cars but lots of Korean cars. Just no new American cars. Cubans love American cars, and would rather drive a 50 year old American car than a one year old Polish car.

why does France have 12% unemployment? Inflexible labor markets. If the United States had less flexible labor markets, we'd have similar unemployment rates as the French.

Daedalus, I understand capital gains tax is a form of double taxation. Is that necessarily bad? Virtually all goods and services we consume are taxed at more than point. That's the reality of the tax code, not necessarily good or bad.

Clarification--payroll taxes are withholdings for social security and medicare (and other various taxes in some localities). You pay these on the first dollar you make, but you don't pay them beyond wages you make over $88k. They are also only paid on wages, not dividend, interest or capital gains. They are by definition a regressive tax.

Income taxes are graduated. You don't pay them on the first dollar you make, and depending on how much (or little) money you make you not pay them at all.

So when you tell that PFC in Iraq whose wife and two children live on food stamps, who pays payroll taxes, as well as federal and state consumption taxes that he doesn't deserve a child tax credit, you PROVE my point.

Jaxs170, as far as Dan Rather calling Florida for Gore, maybe that has to do with the fact that Gore won the popular vote in Florida. As far as CNN reporting doom and gloom, maybe that's because there isn't anything good to report. The Pentagon has a press department, if there was anything good for them to give to the media they would. Are you telling me there's plenty of good news, that the Pentagon's PR department is trying to get it out to the media, but their liberal bias prevents them from reporting it? I don't believe that for a second.

The conservative's problem is that the so called "liberal" media gave the President a free ride before the war. Now that the war (or peace) is going badly, they're asking the tough questions and now are being called on their so called "liberal" bias as a way discrediting them.

Doubledown, their are a lot more than a few conservative newspapers out there. My hometown is one of the largest media markets in the country and its only newspaper is a conservative one. I don't complain about it, I have the Internet, national papers and cable TV as alternatives.

As far as Michael Moore being the darling of the liberal media, that's your own personal bias. If Michael Moore is Superman, I've seen his Lex Luthor, Ann Coulter get more coverage in the so called liberal media.

As far as using John McCain as an example of an unconservative Republican, that's ridiculous. Based on his voting record, John McCain is one of the most conservative Republicans in Congress.

One more thing, "I thought the majority of people in the service were more conservative. Why is Kimphil in the military, or thinking about going in". Hmm, let's mull that one over. The majority of people in the military are white, so why would someone Asian, Latino, or African American want to go in? The majority of people in the service are men, so why would women want to go in? Most of the people in the service are Christian, so why would someone Jewish or Muslim want to go in? The real question should be "why do you ask something so stupid?"
 

Daedalus

Registered User
Kimphil you cheese eating surrender monkey, no the correct answer is communism.
I guess you still don't get the whole taxes thing. Which is more (very simple) 600$ in tax revenue or 85000 in revenue? The rich do pay more, it's very simple concept to grasp. Also the Child tax credit was not a gift, I thought I already explained this: a PFC makes X $ does not get taxed and does not get a credit...a worker makes X $, pays 5000 in taxes and gets 800 back it’s his money. If we gave a child tax gift and the PFC got money from a credit then that money would be from other taxpayers and it would be considered welfare not a tax reduction.
’ So when you tell that PFC in Iraq whose wife and two children live on food stamps, who pays payroll taxes, as well as federal and state consumption taxes that he doesn't deserve a child tax credit, you PROVE my point.’ I can’t even touch this, because if I said the military is all voluntary, and they don’t deserve a child tax credit I would be the bad guy. I can say that they deserve to be paid more because the work they do is invaluable and often dangerous. I could be wrong, but military in combat zones do not pay taxes no?

Michael Moore is a 'disgrace' he has no Idea what he is talking about and further he made his movies like the one about Flint, he came from Flint, about how all the poor people were out of work, but he profited from their misery by making fun of corporations. Corporations aren't perfect, they did screw their workers, but Moore screwed everyone especially the poor who he was so righteously 'defending' He took his money and laughed all the way to the bank.
 

doubledown

Registered User
Quote: "The majority of people in the military are white, so why would someone Asian, Latino, or African American want to go in? The majority of people in the service are men, so why would women want to go in? Most of the people in the service are Christian, so why would someone Jewish or Muslim want to go in? The real question should be "why do you ask something so stupid?"

Okay kimphil, you've got a point on this one...

As far as Micheal Moore, I consider him a discrace because he goes against what this country stands for. Free speech (which he so greatly enjoys), Gun rights especially. I did NOT watch Bowling for Columbine because I wasn't going to give my hard earned money to that slime ball. I did however go online and do a lot of research on it to see what it was about. I also read a lot of quotes from people in the movie that said that he tricked them into saying something and then edited it to have a anti-gun slant. Not to mention him on tv. He will slam the republican party only (and the liberal media allows him) and just ridicule the administration, which in many other countries he would dissapear.

As far as the McCain issue, I loved that man until he came out with the McCain-Fiengold bill. I actually voted for him over Bush in the primaries. That bill limits speech on special interest group (i.e. NAACP, NRA, ect...) up to 90 days before an election. Number one, he's cutting the 1st amendment to say 90 days before an election, no one who has a following can say anything through commercials, or magazine articles ect... It does not limit the media however. They can talk all they want, and because they tend to slant to the left, they will speak higher of the liberal parties allowing the majority of the house, senate and even the presidency to turn democratic. How much funding do you think you'll get for the military?

All, or most, of us on this site are either in the military or joining. That means we are all defending the same thing, our way of life, the lives of the 250 million Americans and the Constitution, which includes the Bill of Rights. When we allow people like Moore and McCain to wipe their ass with the Constitution, it SHOULD offend all of us.

That's my opinion.
 

room5047

Registered User
yep, i love a good debate too, tell me when one starts. i like debate, i hate yelling dogma back and forth. all my dogmas come from monty python:

-- "look, an argument is a series of logical statements assembled together to prove a point! it's not just sayin' 'no it isn't!"
-- "yeah it is!"
-- "NO IT ISN'T!"

As for Daedalus, take care as you walk the precipitous (oops, there goes another one o them thar SAT words - i must be insecure, right?) margin between smug righteousness and uncivility (wait, so i could write a BOOK about economics if i wanted, but disagreeing with the principles of your tax plan means i don't get it like you do? try reading the original adam smith, or js mill, marx, galbraith, or nowadays, jeffrey sachs. tell me they don't understand economics the way you, in your enviable God's-eye view, understand EVERYTHING. that's just a rude thing to say)...

anyway, you're right, you've proven that my irrational penchant for patience and tolerance is futile and un-american, because as much as i'd like to try to convince you my personal views aren't "wrong wrong wrong" - much less have an honest discussion of things with you and reach some common ground - you're proud not to be a willing listener and, besides, damn, it's a nice day out. i'm gonna go enjoy it. but just for sh*tz n giggles i'll reply to your brilliant use of metaphor:

"If you have any points or opinions please bring them up so they can debated, or heaven forbid proved wrong instead of saying “everyone has a distinctive identity that leads them to their beliefs” Ya everyone has different size feet so lets not make shoes."

funny that you would mention shoes, where personal tastes enter into it so prominently. if you read my posts, you realize that i'm all for a diversity of shoes, in all different sizes, shapes and colors. i'm just naturally skeptical of the boob who says "8 1/2 wingtips are THE GREATEST SHOES IN THE WORLD! ALL OTHERS BOW DOWN!" ...and when i hear "12 WIDE AIR JORDANS ARE EVIL AND EVERYBODY WHO'S NOT A MORON OR EVILDOER AGAINST US KNOWS IT", i smile, nod, say "i'm skeptical, but tell me more" and quietly pop the safety off my m-4, just in case.

my sense, and you might want to make sure there are no children in the room to hear this heresy, daedalus (just send icarus to go play in the sun), is that there is no right or wrong morality - only what our different tastes (in the form of faith, egoism, pleasure-seeking, and what-have-you) lead us to believe. now before you go sic billy bennett's gambling butt on my own relativist derriere, lemme say that we all, especially in america, happen to have very similar tastes about a lotta things. we all have a penchant for not being murdered, for example, so we get on board with a law to that effect. you don't have to believe that it's god's law (maybe it is, leave that for another post, for the love of pete), it's just a darn good idea. so we examine our motives and our different understandings of the "facts", and move from personal tastes to shared conventions between folks. that's CIVILIZATION in a nutshell; it's "what can we agree on and what can we agree to disagree on?" ... but the system's biggest threat is not that we might breed people who, like Socrates (thanx for the reference Jae!), walk around saying "i don't know but i'd sure like to". it's from the occasional monkey who jumps up and down screaming to the heavens that he alone knows The Way to Truth (hmm, do the Afghan "Arabs" have anybody like that?) and anybody who doesn't recognize it jus' don' unnerstan, and can't be lived with.

i'm glad you n i fight, for the most part, on the same side against the same enemies. just don't be a demagogue in extolling the virtues of your knowledge and your politics. you'll get to sounding eerily like the enemy right quick.
 

room5047

Registered User
btw - i agree mike moore is a boob, not just for his politics (they're not WRONG in a universal sense, but danged wrong for me and my guns), but because his "work" and his grandstanding don't win any converts or elicit any thought, they just stand as the great big incoherent, rambling smears they are. i wanna uniter, not a divider!

new tangent: what's everyone think about general clark? a military man and a democrat? is the sky falling yet?
 

Daedalus

Registered User
"i'm all for a diversity of shoes" -room
Well I have yet to find a democrat who has taken a economics class.
 

perchul

Registered User
well before we get going on General Clark had Doubledown actually watched the film he would realize that it didn't actually have anti-gun slant, the conclusion of the movie was American paranoia was the reason for our violence, while the man advocates some areas where he thinks there could be more gun control. I don't get the point about him standing against free speech, but I'm not an advocate of the man either so I don't try to listen to him to often. The only reason I think the man is a disgrace is because he's fat. I'm a right wing democrat and I've taken more then my fair share of economics, I was under the impression that all schools require at least micro and macro. While I don't think communism can work in reality lets not forget Marx was an economist that certainly understood economics more then anyone on this forum will bother to try...so at some level communism works in theory.
 

Jaxs170

www.YANKEESSUCK.com
Hey Kimphil,

Let's see, you said Jaxs170, as far as Dan Rather calling Florida for Gore, maybe that has to do with the fact that Gore won the popular vote in Florida. SO, my response, as I say in sporting events when the other team wants to claim that they outplayed my team, SCOREBOARD!!!

Official Fla. Count:

Votes Percentage
Bush 2,912,790 49%
Gore 2,912,253 49%

Advantage Bush +537 Certified final results from all 67 Florida counties from the secretary of state's office.

But anyhoo, my point was he called it before everyone had a chance to vote, knowing those who still had the opportunity were apt to be more conservative, but if they were given this gloom and doom news, hopefully they wouldn't go out and vote, which many of them apparently worked b/c a lot of them didn't vote, meaning Bush lost votes.

Don't like these realities, TOUGH! BTW, what were you, an American, doing in Cuba? Last time I checked there was a travel ban there!
 

jaerose

Registered User
Room, could you do some of us lesser mortals a huge favor and break your very long posts up into many smaller posts? I wouldn't ask, but my ADHD makes it difficult for me to finish them all in one sitting. J/K...all in fun =)

JR
 
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