Interesting IAP's...

[Harrier Dude]

If only they knew what was coming for the REAL instrument check in Advanced (at least on the helo side).

I thought Helos didn't fly on instruments though. ???

Why is this?

From what I've heard the chopper instrument check (HTs) is a total kick in the nuts. Briefs lasting 4 hours or more, etc. WTF?

First, is this true, or just myth and urban legend?

Second, if true, why such an emphasis? After advanced I've seen chopper dudes go to extraordinary lengths to avoid flying IFR. They "never" do it. Hence the phrase "I follow Roads" etc.

This seems to follow to the fleet. My roomate on my last float spent LOTS of time debriefing inst checks and writing elaborate gradesheets. Why?

In the jet world it's just not a big deal. It's an easy flight and minimal debrief. Some standard blurb on the required forms and off you go.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Why is this?

From what I've heard the chopper instrument check (HTs) is a total kick in the nuts. Briefs lasting 4 hours or more, etc. WTF?

First, is this true, or just myth and urban legend?

Unfortunately oh so true, and no one could ever give me a reason why, especially considering the pre-check brief was usually as painful as the inst-x brief.

True story, my inst-x brief; 20 minutes. Guy in the briefing space next to me; pass him in the paralocker on his way out as I'm on my way back in, done. He said his brief was almost 3.5 hrs. Guess it helped to be able to spit back verbatim what 3710 says.

 

[phrogpilot73]

From what I've heard the chopper instrument check (HTs) is a total kick in the nuts. Briefs lasting 4 hours or more, etc. WTF?

First, is this true, or just myth and urban legend?

I think it's a little bit of both. My pre-check (RI-17) the brief lasted for a whopping 30 minutes. My check ride (RI-18X) the brief lasted for about an hour and a half. I've known guys whose brief lasted upwards of 2 1/2 hours, but I haven't heard of one lasting four hours. It is a kick in the nuts, covering a ridiculuous amount of OPNAV 3710, FAR/AIM, plus all the pubs.

Second, if true, why such an emphasis? After advanced I've seen chopper dudes go to extraordinary lengths to avoid flying IFR. They "never" do it. Hence the phrase "I follow Roads" etc.

This seems to follow to the fleet. My roomate on my last float spent LOTS of time debriefing inst checks and writing elaborate gradesheets. Why?

In the jet world it's just not a big deal. It's an easy flight and minimal debrief. Some standard blurb on the required forms and off you go.

There's a number of different reasons why we avoid flying IFR like we avoid a toothless, HIV-positive hooker.

First, a helo isn't the most stable of IFR platforms. Yes, they have AFCS to help stablilize it - but it's still not great. Also - no autopilot to reduce the workload (well, you could call a 2P an autopilot). And if your AFCS fails when you're in the goo? It's like flying a TH-57B again. Only now, you can refer to the TH-57B as a "stable instrument platform". It's that bad. I once had a CO turn off my AFCS during my instrument check (and I was actually in the goo), during a TACAN point to point. I ended up 7 miles away from the intersection I was aiming for. The ball just isn't designed for the sweet amount of yaw you get when you're AFCS off.

Second, most fleet helos (as mentioned previously) only have TACAN. Our precision approaches include the mighty PAR. So, in some areas of the country (like between Dayton, OH and Morgantown, WV) we can't LEGALLY fly on the airways. Weather sucked leaving Dayton, and only the 53's could fly to Morgantown (because they have a VOR/ILS). We had to wait for the weather to break because there weren't enough VORTACs between the two.

Finally, I think the biggest reason we avoid IFR like we avoid a romantic night with a Thai ladyboy is because we don't have an ejection seat. We're riding Mr. Toad's wild ride to the end. If I'm in the goo and have to autorotate - I have no idea how it's going to turn out. I could be autorotating into buildings, trees, powerlines, towers, or an open field. I'd rather have a fighting chance of surviving the autorotation by being able to see what I'm autorotating towards. Because I'm in the goo, I don't know that if I turn 15 degrees to the right I'm pointing at an empty field. Instead, I'm aiming straight for a building. I'd rather fly under the weather and see the obstacles.

I think these reasons are why IFR is viewed as almost an EP in a helicopter, and hence the reason for the long and detailed briefs. We can do it, but it's not our first choice. And when we do it, we have to be on our game.

 

[KBayDog]

^Phrogpilot has a bunch of great points.

Flying in IMC is a fact of life for west coast rotorheads. The question is never "if" the marine layer will come; the question is "when." It is really not that big of a deal - it is just another contingency for which you have to plan. The only time it becomes an issue is when you want to go "over the hill" (El Centro/Yuma/29 Palms) and freezing conditions might exist at altitude.

While flying IFR tends to be the exception, rather than the rule (except during IMC launches/recoveries), we make our money in BIs - both on gogs and especially at the boat.

 

[Pags]

we make our money in BIs - both on gogs and especially at the boat.

Damn straight. Everyone likes to hate on the oscar pattern, but BIs are what keeps you alive at the boat.

 

[Gatordev]

Why is this?

From what I've heard the chopper instrument check (HTs) is a total kick in the nuts. Briefs lasting 4 hours or more, etc. WTF?

First, is this true, or just myth and urban legend?

Second, if true, why such an emphasis? After advanced I've seen chopper dudes go to extraordinary lengths to avoid flying IFR. They "never" do it. Hence the phrase "I follow Roads" etc.

This seems to follow to the fleet. My roomate on my last float spent LOTS of time debriefing inst checks and writing elaborate gradesheets. Why?

In the jet world it's just not a big deal. It's an easy flight and minimal debrief. Some standard blurb on the required forms and off you go.

Lots of good responses. I think another part of the issue is that your HT instrument check isn't just an instrument check, but essentially a private pilot type check as well. Many might argue that's not necessary, but it gives students a good foundation for operating in the real world which isn't just instruments and rainbows. My RI-17 (pre-check) was thorough but not retardedly anal. It was w/ a good IP who covered a broad spectrum of info (FAR/AIM, Opnav, both VFR and IFR charts, etc). Why all the extra VFR stuff? My theory is that since we're helos, that's where we operate a lot and there's no real "test" for that stuff other than the ONAV flights (or whatever they call them).

My partner was pretty solid, so between the two of us, we powered through. A good "check" IMO. My RI-18 (actual Inst-X) was a 20 minute brief. Both my partner and I (who had gone through just about every flight together) both had good reps. We flew the Xs and passed. No real drama (other than, what I'm convinced was, a CRM "test" while I was flying).

So, the end question you asked is: is this all necessary? I'd say yes, for no other reason than later, in the fleet, I flew from Mayport to West Palm, VFR, and my 2P couldn't find where we were or where we were going until we passed Cape Canaveral. For anyone familiar w/ the area, you'll know how sad that is.

 

[FLYTPAY]

For anyone familiar w/ the area, you'll know how sad that is.

Tragic.

 

[MasterBates]

Some H2Ps come out of the RAG such "Scope Cripples" that they cannot VNAV.

My favorite "NVG Good Deal" for H2Ps was to go unaided to Florala, then NVGs back to Mayport for an out an in. So many would either want to punch it into the computer and get a direct fly to, but had NO IDEA where we were, or follow TACANs the whole way. Other than 243 miles to go, most would be clueless as to WHERE we are. And where things like BIG FREAKING TOWERS are.

I would make them use a chart and "steer me there" (and no following I-10 past TLH).

Then we would goggle it back. A couple guys said it was a kick in the nuts, but they learned something (see skipper, I really AM training, not just on a burrito run!).

 

[Scoob]

Some H2Ps come out of the RAG such "Scope Cripples" that they cannot VNAV.

My favorite "NVG Good Deal" for H2Ps was to go unaided to Florala, then NVGs back to Mayport for an out an in. So many would either want to punch it into the computer and get a direct fly to, but had NO IDEA where we were, or follow TACANs the whole way. Other than 243 miles to go, most would be clueless as to WHERE we are. And where things like BIG FREAKING TOWERS are.

I would make them use a chart and "steer me there" (and no following I-10 past TLH).

Then we would goggle it back. A couple guys said it was a kick in the nuts, but they learned something (see skipper, I really AM training, not just on a burrito run!).

One of my last flights as a 2P, I flew with a new HAC who, when we were trying to come up with something to do during the brief for a night flight, told me (no shit), "well we can't go to Cedar Key because we've got a Block 0 (no GPS)".

We ended up doing it, but I had to convince him of the stupidity of what he had just said, first. I love me some VNAV - especially at night.

The best was going down to Orlando to watch the fireworks - before that became a No-No.

 

[insanebikerboy]

see skipper, I really AM training, not just on a burrito run!

Liar, we all know Florala burritos are soooooo good. :tongue2_1

 

[MasterBates]

VNAV skills are good.

My 1st HAC flight was from NRB (Mayport) to West Palm, to the Bahamas and back in a block 0 (PW-423).

And our TACAN took a crap on the way to AUTEC. Being able to DR and find islands is a good thing. VFR flying in AUTEC is great. Probably how it was here 30 years ago.

 

[Scoob]

VFR flying in AUTEC is great. Probably how it was here 30 years ago.

Went with that same HAC and another crew to AUTEC to do VECTACs for a BG. Got a whole day CANX'ed and managed to get the Skipper to let us burn the hours flying the maintainers around the island.

Good times.

 

[scoober78]

Yet another successful threadjack by the HSL mafia...:sleep_125

 

[MasterBates]

I really liked the CO we had when I made HAC. A couple dirty hinges balked about sending someone with ZERO Navy Aircraft Commander hours out of the US on his first flight.

His reply: "If I trust him to be a HAC, I trust him to do anything that could be required of a HAC"

(A lot of squadrons were doing the "HAC-but" thing not trusting their new guys to go outside the pattern and PAR box until they had a few HAC hours)

 

[Scoob]

I really liked the CO we had when I made HAC. A couple dirty hinges balked about sending someone with ZERO Navy Aircraft Commander hours out of the US on his first flight.

His reply: "If I trust him to be a HAC, I trust him to do anything that could be required of a HAC"

(A lot of squadrons were doing the "HAC-but" thing not trusting their new guys to go outside the pattern and PAR box until they had a few HAC hours)

Masterbatini -

Of course, then there was the time that skeds put a brand new HAC together with a guy on his first flight after about 10 mos med-down. Some things do fail the common sense check.

But, going to AUTEC on your first HAC flight shouldn't be one of 'em.

-Scooboni