Chubby
Active Member
Best example I could find... now imagine you are wing breaking into and under lead. It's pretty kick @ss.
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Form landing??
- Thread starter wink
- Start date
Better version of the Blues doing it here. Now imagine breaking to downwind like that.
Part of me would love to do one someday . . . if it's ever kosher (not likely). Certainly not worth my wings though . . .
Follow me through:
A 270 degree roll ... initially the "opposite" direction of the pattern, starting underneath. You end up going the same way, same day, as you would have initially done had you just snapped/rolled 90 degrees in the direction of the downwind pattern.
Not a great example (above) ; but imagine that the Queer A-6 continues her roll --- ending up pulling right out of your computer screen; comin' right at you !!! And what crazy parallel universe is this, anyway ??? ... an Electric A-6 leading a Bomber into the break ??? I don't think so .... unless it's CAG --- and then he'd be flying the bomber.
I used to also do variations of a "tuck-under" when rolling in on the target -- on a practice, raked range. I.e., target right ... I'd initially roll left ... and all the way around and then into the run. Guys riding in my back seat/right seat (depending on a/c) used to "brace" for the expected direction of roll/pull --- only to be kissing the plexiglass a second later.
Much fun. Very jolly ....
Cause it looks fvcking awesome, duh.
Primary wasn't so long ago and this is what I remember. 2 types 1. section approach with about 1 mile final kiss off wing and he selects flaps and slows down while lead continues and does a fast landing (no flaps I believe) each taking seperate sides of the runway. 2. modified box/civilian pattern on base getting ready to turn final lead signals visual on runway and wing land then kisses off wing and cuts the corner to do a fast/ NF landing again on his side of the runway. wing goes flaps and slows squaring the box. I definitely remember instructors harping on getting 1000 feet of interval and taking the opposite side of the runway from lead. There was something about the AF doing some section approaches to section landings though.
Section of hornets did a section landing yesterday, looked pretty slick.
pdx
HSM Pilot
I would concur that these were IP/IP form upgrade hops. The normal form instructors have to get an extra qual to do "cruise forms" which is everything except interval takeoffs, parade sequence, rondezvous, and the basic section breaks where wing takes interval behind lead in the downwind.
In cruise forms, we do section gos and section approaches, but NOT section landings. Proper invterval was 1500'. Lead lands no-flaps on the upwind side of the runway, wing lands full-flaps on the opposite half.
Instructors do crazy things when they are flying with other instructors. The example we always heard in primary was a flight of 5 T-34s on a form upgrade X-country to Key West. They decided to fly diamond formation so the 5th plane could "shoot the diamond" or something equally unwise. There isn't exactly an FTI procedure for doing so, and it ended with one of the T-34s having fewer tail feathers than it started with.
In cruise forms, we do section gos and section approaches, but NOT section landings. Proper invterval was 1500'. Lead lands no-flaps on the upwind side of the runway, wing lands full-flaps on the opposite half.
Instructors do crazy things when they are flying with other instructors. The example we always heard in primary was a flight of 5 T-34s on a form upgrade X-country to Key West. They decided to fly diamond formation so the 5th plane could "shoot the diamond" or something equally unwise. There isn't exactly an FTI procedure for doing so, and it ended with one of the T-34s having fewer tail feathers than it started with.
pdx
HSM Pilot
I heard this straight from the guy who knew the guy that flew with the onwing of the guy who saw it first hand. That makes me pretty confident about the details
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You know, I've never seen a Prowler do that, but I don't know of anything which would prohibit it either. I'll address it with the RAG LSO's this weekend and see what we can't come up with. WRT the Blues and Van Halen, there was a video they played for me in boot camp circa 1990 where the Blues in their F/A-18s were paired with the dulcet tones of Van Halen's "Dreams." Motivation to be sure. Made me re-learn the guitar solo from that tune - good times!
Brett
Hornets will do section landings. The how is usually covered in the SOP. To practice section landings needed minimal crosswind, 8000' of dry runway, and brief the details. After touchdown lead delays pulling power for a couple potatos, -2 goes to idle right away, and the jets separate quickly, well before any brake or planing link problems could really develop.
The reason to do a section landing is that if you do a section approach and don't split on final by about 600' AGL you won't get the separation for an interval landing. If you shoot a section approach to circling mins you are usually better off landing in section. Also useful if you are leading a NORDO or emergency aircraft back through the weather and you don't want him to shoot his own approach. Yes, you can just drop him off and go around for another approach (and should if there is water on the runway), but that means you take another PAR slot, some other aircraft is holding at the IAF burning gas, you are still flying around in the goo, etc.
Are there risks? Of course. But there are situations where the "accept risk were the benefits outweigh the risk" part of ORM applies.
There is also something very cool about operating in section from brake release to touchdown.
I heard this straight from the guy who knew the guy that flew with the onwing of the guy who saw it first hand. That makes me pretty confident about the details
Having been A)a student at whiting at the time, b)on duty sitting in the office next to that squadron's sdo and c)involved helping with the scramble-ex it caused and then there for the full formal debrief/standdown that it created, I would say that your information sucks. It was a little more than lost tail feathers, one of the deceased was a student and there were other students in the other aircraft. Unauthorized and unbriefed diamond, but the specific details as to what happened and why probably don't need to be dredged up on this forum. I am sure that you can find it in the hazrep archives if you are of a mind, and if you have no access, be content with the results of doing something stupid explanation.
pdx
HSM Pilot
Sarcasm obviously didn't come through very well. I am well aware I don't have the details. I heard about the incident during a Friday ORM brief, and very few details were provided. At the time, I didn't ask for anything more, and I certainly didn't know there were deaths involved. I am told there is a Grampaw Pettibone article about the incident, maybe I will look it up. If I offended you, I'm sorry for making light of a tragic situation.
Back to the original question, I just sat through an Instrument Ground School refresher, where this came up as a bonus question during our review. According to our instructor, OPNAV (3710.7, I assume) specifically prohibits section touch and goes, but does allow section T/O and landings.
Penguin
Penguin