Anyone Currently at the Citadel...

[confused_pilot]

I would just like to defend my last post since I saw quite a few cuts from the ole I man here. As far as me being happy that I am not at the USNA it in no way shape or form relates to me trying to "make myself feel good for being rejected." If I was not in NROTC I would not have had many of the flying opportunities I have had since I would have only got 25 hours of flight time my senior year. I just picked up my CFI two weeks ago, on the Navy's tab. I have gotten to fly halfway across the country, in a Cessna 152. I have flown into some of the most major airports across the country including Newerk, Teterboro, Midway, Baltimore-Washington, Clevland, as well as having the ability to take a night and just go to Atlantic City for fun. While this flying may not mean much to the Navy in the long run, I don't personally have the money to afford the Commercial Single, Multi,Instrament, CFI that I currently walk around with in my flight bag. So when I say I am happy I am not at the academy I truely am content with that. Also, I have had the opportunity to lead my own personal life outside of pt, drill, and classes. I am not saying that ROTC is any better than the Academies, but likewise the Academies are no better than ROTC, or BDCP, or OCS, or NUPOC, STA21... As far as the caliber of people coming out of there, I said it before where I spoke mostly on hersay, 90% of the people I have met are really cool people, and that is all of the academies. But there is that 10% too, and they will learn, but as phrog put it and I neglected to state, because I thought it was implied, theres that same 90% or so in my NROTC unit that are also good leaders ect. but theres always going to be that 10%. I don't hate the academy, or a majority of the mids that go there, they still put their pants on the same way as me in the morning. Sure its a good school, and training ground, but its no better than any other program. Everything has advantages and disadvantages, winners and losers. So for me NROTC has turned out to be the best option for me, I was born to fly and love it, even if I dont get a SNA slot, I will still have many options after 4 years on the surface. If I could do it over would I got USNA? I am not going to lie, I probably would, but would it be the same? Would my life be as good as I think it is? Who knows, but I know for sure I would be instructing in Annapolis right now. I didn't develope any opinion about the academy based on the 2 girls that were incredibly out of line. I still have friends there, and yes some are female mid's, I was just relating instances that some might view differently had they not had the experiences that I have had, and where the bad academy wrap may come from. Not to say I agree or believe any of it.

 

[confused_pilot]

Correction- I WOULD NOT be instructing in Annapolis right now

 

[TNWhiskey]

Integer I don't get your logic...if you didn't go to the academy you're inferior academically -OR- didn't have the courage to plan a life in the military when you were 18? I think there are some obvious things that haven't been said here, but have been danced around.

The academies are a means to maintain the officer Corps. Uncle Sam started West Point and Annapolis back in the infant stages of the country right? Back then there weren't 3000 different univerities to choose from and we needed to train our military officers. Now with so many people spread across the country it is cheaper to employ ROTC and other programs to find prospective military officers. But of course why do away with the academies that have tradition and history and can create an atmosphere that may help cultivate some motivated individuals better than perhaps another program could. The fact of the matter is...that the military doesn't need an Academy officer or a NROTC officer or and OCS officer...it needs officers period. When I get commissioned I'm not kissing anyone's ring -OR- taking a crap on an NCO that doesn't have degree at all. The concept is team, the mission is clear.

As for the statement that people choose their military life in hs and go to an academy, and that somehow makes them better people...Do you remember when you were 18? I'm guessing so since it wasn't that long ago. Well do you remember when I was 18? NO you don't. You don't know that I've lived with a single parent mother my whole life and didn't spend minute one around anyone in the military...That's not exactly the kind of life that pushes one to applying to the academy or the military at all. The point is some people are pushed to the military by family history, living close to military installations, or whatever...and others are not. So when I am half way through college and happen to sit next to a LtCol. USMC on a plane who talks to me and recommends that I check out PLC or OCC for various things he's picked up on in our conversation, am I to assume from your comments that its too late for me and I'm not officer material because I didn't 'choose to die for my country' at age 18? And because I don't jump on the opportunity to apply until after I'm on my honeymoon in Jamaica on 9/11, does that make me even less qualified? Does it matter how I get there as long as I do what it takes and try to be the best officer I can be?

As for academics...again, as said before where you go to college doesn't make you smart. The insinuation that somehow academy grads have a near monopoly on intelligence is ridiculous. I've had two C's from the 9th grade through college both in college Anatomy and Phys (I didn't want to take them time to give two s---'s about what specific cells look like under a microscope). I say this not to pat myself on the back but to disspell the insinuation...once again my family situation lead me to pass on applications and scholarships at well known universities in order to stay closer to home. So now that I've graduated from an urban state school am I less intelligent than an academy grad? Sorry I don't think so.

My basic premise is that you talk about generalizations made about academy officers made by NCO's and other officers, but you at the same time are making assumptions about those who apply to other commissioning programs during or after college. The bottom line is you don't know everyone's situation so you can't make any generalization about intelligence, commitment, or effectiveness as an officer...Back in the early 1800's the argument that academy officers were better equipped to lead in the military would be a no-brainer, because of the general lack of education throughout the states. Now its a lot different...IMO.

 

[Integer]

A lot of stuff was not my opinion, but stuff I read. I do not think any path is inferior to any other, I was just defending the Academy people. I know a lot about the academy, but a lot less about OCS, BDCP, ROTC. So when I spoke about highlights of the academy and not about other commissioning sources, it was because 1) the whole topic is the citadel vs academy 2) the academy is what I know about. I never said or implied that other sources suck. I was just taking a patriotic view of the academy folks. If I had to write about OCS, I would talk about experienced people who dropped what they were doing to become officers in the navy, etc. Good things, also.

If you are implying that I shouldn't be talking, since I must be an idiot if by my logic only Academy grads are worth any salt, and I'm not one of them--that isn't my logic, like I already stated.

As far as I knew, I wasn't qualified for even the preliminary application at the time I was in high school. So, my situation and yours are similar. I congratulate you on what sounds like a lot of focus on your goals. I am doing the same.

 

[Spidey]

Well, this thread is certainly, um interesting. For all of you to know, so I am not pulling this out of no where, I am a plebe at the academy right now. Now I am not going to preach on what I do not know, like what the fleet thinks of us "ring knockers" and "academy grads" but I can tell you what the current feeling is here and what I am going through.

First, I want to say the academics are tougher, tougher than any other school? Perhaps, I don't know, never been to another college, but I there are midshipman here who have, and they have all said that they are harder here.

Second, the general feeling I get around the academy is that we are walking into a bad reputation at the fleet. It's like going to a new school when every bad thing you ever did was announced publicly to the entire student body the day before. Now, I am not going to say every single midshipman is not an arrogant, self-serving, SOB. They are a small few of my upperclass and fellow plebes who I wonder how they got here, but that is what happens when you have over 1000 per class, not everyone is perfect, sorry. So as for going into the fleet, yes we have a bad reputation, but I can say for myself, as well as for the majority of the brigade, I am going to try to change that.

 

[webmaster]

Spidey, I can see how that perception can happen at the USNA when you have recieved some bad publicity over the last couple years. But quite honestly, aside from the bad apples (and they come from NROTC, OCS, and Priors also), as far as I have seen in the aviation community, there really isn't any distinction from the troops, and definitely not from your fellow officers. The unfortunate thing with Naval Aviation, is that you train for so many years, that before you even get the chance to lead sailors you are already on your way to being a LT. But in another sense, you also have broken away from the fresh out of the USNA "mold". Now, speaking as a prior enlisted submariner, we would get an Academy grad once in a long while, that treated "blue shirts" like ****, well, we had our own ways of fixing that perception. But I was always impressed how the JOs took care of us on the boat, the ones that didn't get alot of pressure from above and below.

 

[confused_pilot]

I am suprised no one has tried to take a cut at the "hornet mophia" while were talking about groups of people with a less than stellar wrap in the Navy. And Spidey good luck with your goals to break the cycles that surrond the academy. You might not be able to do it completely yourself, but anything couldnt hurt. But as far as everything goes, ROTC and OCS have the same problems as the academy with those self-serving SOB's, they just lack the publicity and history in the fleet. As far as aviation breaking the USNA mold, it does that for anyone who comes to aviation in my opinion. Not only does it deal with time, but even in the civilian world there just some level that people connect on and find a mutual respect, for anyone from drivers to maintenece. Though A&P's in the civilian world are money hungry b@stards, but hey they keep you flying thats always a plus in my book.

 

[MOJO]

I also am a plebe at USNA right now, and I see a lot of the same stuff that Spidey does. There are probably between 8 and 15 people in my company that I could name offhand that will probably be total pricks when they get to the fleet or who just shouldn't ever have come here. It's unfortunate that the reputation of a group is based on its weakest/poorest quality members, but I also am comitted to doing my part to better the reputation of the Academy out in the fleet.

I'm not a blind defender of the Academy. There's plenty about the people and program that I would change if I could. One of the biggest pitfalls of the Academy is how it separates midshipmen from the real world experience, and I imagine (never having been to a normal college) that it's harder to keep your perspective through all four years than at a civilian school. That's also probably the source of a lot of the supposed arrogance of Academy grads. Suffice to say, there are plenty of good reasons that IHTFP is probably the single most common phrase around campus.

The thing that does upset me is people who for some reason think they need to belittle the challenges and committment faced by midshipmen. Even if the citadel is a little harder militarily, or if Harvard is more rigorous academically, it's unfair to say that we midshipmen have it easy. USNA is one of the very top engineering schools in the country, rated #7 by Princeton Review for overall best academic experience, truly a world-class education as mentioned earlier. The minimum courseload is 15 credit hours per semester, most people take between 19 and 23. As far as militarily, it would be stupid to suggest that the military environment is less than rigorous even if it's not "The Hardest" and of the major service academies the plebe indoctrination process is the longest, going all the way until May (Air Force is "at rest" in November, completely done in March; Army I think finishes in November). Even if it's not in every way the best and the toughest, the Academy experience is challenging. While I do think that performance is really the only thing that counts as far as how one should be judged as an officer, people should at least not disrespect or belittle the sacrifices and committment involved with completing 4 years by the bay.

 

[confused_pilot]

MOJO are you planning on flying?...Check out nafcflying.org im on the instructor list Tony Kochanski let me know if you are intrested in getting a few hops or a private in.

 

[rjack14]

OK no offense to all of you but there seems to be a lot of crap in here. I can't say how it is at other schools but I am a senior at USNA. I have been selected to be a SNFO. Course I want to be a pilot, but you know what? I am happy just to be flying Navy in some form. I was also a prior enlisted. So I knew the opinion of ring knockers going in. If I did it again I most likely would not have come here, but I am still damn proud to be here. Have I had a bad time? No. I have met some friends that I know will be there for the rest of my career and life. The way I see it you have bad officers from every comissioning source.

I can clear up some things here.
1) For one a post in the begining of this commented that we had to rape people. WTF? That happens in any school and in the fleet. We just get plublicity cause of being the Academy.
2) Don't even try to argue that a place like the Citadel has better academics than USNA. I am engineer and it sucks, but not many schools can compare to our engineering program.
3) All officers end up being equal wherever they come from in the long run. However, when I was on cruise the ROTC kids have hardly any knowledge of the Navy. Heck I told one that I was on cruise with that I got NFO for service selection and they asked what that was.
4) If you are going Navy having a harder first year isn't important, lets be real here Naval Aviation isn't all about polished uniforms and yelling at people telling them they are worthless. However I will say that Plebe summer was harder than boot camp in my opinion. I have heard the other way around from some of my classmates.
5) We do have some people that I think will be considered "ring knockers". The only reason we have a bad rep like that is that a tag can be applied to our school. ROTC kids come from varied schools and are just refered to as a-holes or SOBs in the fleet. We refer to them as ROTC Nazis cause supposedly they come out all gung ho cause they haven't been living the military life for the previous four years.
6) The Academy does baby us. We really do not have to make life decisions, pay bills, wash clothes, etc. That is deffinetly a bad thing, most these kids have no clue how to take care of themselves on the outside and a ton are getting married right away.

OK to finish of this ridiculously long post, I think there is only one thing that ruins an officer. When an officer is only about taking care of his career and not his people is what causes bad officers. I have met too many of those here. They come from ROTC, OCS, and USNA. For all those that think anything academy is bad you need to look at yourself. If you want to be an officer or are an officer and are judging people by the school they went to you are showing some poor leadership. Oh, and all those thinking TOOL, well I am at the bottom of the class and I have my share of majors and such.

 

[confused_pilot]

every class needs an achorman

 

[petescheu]

hey at least they'll be 1000 dollars richer for being anchorman (at least at USNA). fine line to skate though...

 

[turtle_sc]

STA-21 at Citadel

Anyone in STA-21 going to the Citadel? That was one of my choices, and I just wanted to ask a few questions about their program. So, if any of you guys/gals are currently attending drop a line if you don't mind me picking your brain.

 

[nfo2b]

Try sending a PM to fellow AirWarrior El Cid. He's currently an OC at the Citadel, and has some great insight into the life of a STA-21er there.

 

[KBayDog]

I graduated from El Cid in May (MECEP), and though I don't know a lot about STA-21, I could help answer some questions about the school and the NROTC unit there. Please feel free to PM me.