Air Marshals Kill Erratic Passenger in Miami

[Punk]

ahha, so it was passed

and its confidential, makes sense

 

[A4sForever]

Thanks, Brett .... good call.

Transportation Security Administration; Federal Flight Deck Officer Program:

https://tsatesting.net/ffdo/pilot/login.asp

Federal Air Marshal Association FFDO endorsement:

http://www.secure-skies.org/mackett/FAMAENDORSEMENT.pdf

Airline Pilots Security Alliance link:

http://www.secure-skies.org/Arming_Pilots.php

Some of these links may not work if you do not have a pilot's certificate # on file with the FAA .... because that's the way it is set up for screening purposes. As far as the rest of it .... you guys should know that I am NOT going to give out confidential information on a public forum. What ARE you thinking .... ????

 

[Cornellianintel]

My dad, also a retired federal agent, currently is a supervisor for the Federal Air Marshals (FAMs). He wanted an income to supplement his pension (and it is good money), but it's actually a really difficult, time consuming job. All in all he's happy with the program, and would recommend it to any guy coming out of the military -- they're always looking for new FAMs, and hire almost exclusively former military (especially those with weapons/combat experience). He also worked as an actual FAM back when the program originally started (I think it was in the 70s), when they were called "Sky Marshals." Kind of a circle of life thing.

I talked with him earlier tonight, and they're all in a tizzy around the office -- and no wonder. It'll be interesting to see how it all turns out....

Yeah, I think the time factor was my uncle's main reason for not doing it. He likes his retiree's freedom. He thought it would be pretty low commitment, but was apparently wrong.

Take care

 

[MIDNJAC]

The outflow valve regulates the cabin pressure on the aircraft. It is far bigger than a window. It would not be catastrophic like the movies always make it.

not to get off topic, but could someone explain how this works? It would seem to me that there would be a delay between when the window was blown out, and when the pressure system could actually restore local cabin pressure. Clearly this is not the case (as I'm pretty sure that HAL and A4's know what they are talking about), but I'm just curious how the system compensates for this??

 

[ChuckMK23]

My experience with Air Marshals has not been particularly reassuring. Their presence on board has never had a "calming" effect ...

Secure cockpit doors, armed crew member(s), and proper mental preparation and training in the cockpit will prevent future 9/11's, Air Marshals or not. These would have stopped the original 9/11 as well .......

I agree with A4s on this one - The whole Air Program is a panacea. Add to it the ineffectyive DHS and TSA beaurcracy and it's not something I personally have a lot of faith in.

Now in this instance I think deadly force could have been avoided. Most street cops would have put this thing in context. Once this thing was on the jetway it should have shifted to a more traditional law enforcement approach.

 

[nittany03]

I meant inside and just outside the terminals. Not an entire area around the airport.

I have also been told that it is a hollow point subsonic round that is used.

Umm . . . then how is one supposed to check a gun in one's baggage (a legal right) when one can't even carry it into the terminal? You already have to pass through security to get anywhere near an aircraft, so why do we need to ban guns from the rest of the terminal area? And if someone really plans on shooting up the curbside check-ins, I doubt they'd care one way or the other.

 

[East]

not to get off topic, but could someone explain how this works? It would seem to me that there would be a delay between when the window was blown out, and when the pressure system could actually restore local cabin pressure. Clearly this is not the case (as I'm pretty sure that HAL and A4's know what they are talking about), but I'm just curious how the system compensates for this??

When a pax window blows out there's no way for ANY system to compensate/restore cabin press again. The only thing left to do is an emer descent and hope that everybody on board will keep their hearing abilities.
P ambient will be P cabin within seconds, so time is a factor if you fly at high altitudes. At great heights oxygen is insufficient so everybody needs oxygen from their ox generator to prevent hypoxia.

 

[Lawman]

I agree with A4s on this one - The whole Air Program is a panacea. Add to it the ineffectyive DHS and TSA beaurcracy and it's not something I personally have a lot of faith in.

Now in this instance I think deadly force could have been avoided. Most street cops would have put this thing in context. Once this thing was on the jetway it should have shifted to a more traditional law enforcement approach.

Ummm... most of the street cops, my former self included, that Ive spoken too agree that this seems like a good shot. I say seems, because all we've really gotten to see so far is the News reports not a press meeting held but the Miami FAM office. The whole situation of Bomb changes a lot of things. And these guys train for that circumstance far more then your average street cop. But yeah from what Ive seen the failure to comply with Air Marshalls and the risk/threat to the civilian bystanders as well as the officers themselves led this to be a good shot. The problem comes from the fact that unlike street cops, they FAM's only 2 levels of force.

1. Presence/Physical deterance - In which they give a direct order and or implement physical restraint to a non-compliant target that does not present the threat of deadly force.

2. Lethal Force

Yes somebodys gonna come out *(Probably the ACLU or something) and say, well why didnt they just use Tazers. Well first these are undercover officer, meaning they can only carry so much without loosing the effect of camoflage. It would be pretty easy to pick out a guy in plane clothes wearing all the stuff I carried on his belt. Also Tazers are not the miracle weapon they've been made out to be. I was personally never that impressed with the weapon due to limitations (range, single shot capacity without reload, poor accuracy in comparison to OC or firearms, ect).

As to A4's opinion of the FAM program in general, hes far more experianced with it then I am and givin his level of proffesional experiance with firearms Ill take that opinion in mind.

Also as far as weapons and Caliber, last I checked Federal Air Marshells carry DAK Sig P229's in .357 Sig.

 

[nittany03]

I know that it is legal to have a gun in your baggage that will be on the plane. I meant in a holster or easily accessible place, like a backpack or outer compartment, not locked up. And I think the airport would care if there was a shooting at their curbside, just not as much if it was inside their terminals.

I reiterate my point. There is already a secure area in airports which is designed to keep weapons out of the cabin. CCW or not, you can't legally carry a weapon in this area or on the plane. Thus, what is the point of a no-gun zone outside the traditional security barrier? Carrying in this area is no different from a busy street, park or other public area, and a Concealed Carry permit means you are trusted to to that already. I didn't mean the airport wouldn't care, I meant that the psycho who wants to kill people (or one person) wouldn't care.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Ummm... most of the street cops, my former self included, that Ive spoken too agree that this seems like a good shot. I say seems, because all we've really gotten to see so far is the News reports not a press meeting held but the Miami FAM office. The whole situation of Bomb changes a lot of things. And these guys train for that circumstance far more then your average street cop. But yeah from what Ive seen the failure to comply with Air Marshalls and the risk/threat to the civilian bystanders as well as the officers themselves led this to be a good shot. The problem comes from the fact that unlike street cops, they FAM's only 2 levels of force.

1. Presence/Physical deterance - In which they give a direct order and or implement physical restraint to a non-compliant target that does not present the threat of deadly force.

2. Lethal Force

Yes somebodys gonna come out *(Probably the ACLU or something) and say, well why didnt they just use Tazers. Well first these are undercover officer, meaning they can only carry so much without loosing the effect of camoflage. It would be pretty easy to pick out a guy in plane clothes wearing all the stuff I carried on his belt. Also Tazers are not the miracle weapon they've been made out to be. I was personally never that impressed with the weapon due to limitations (range, single shot capacity without reload, poor accuracy in comparison to OC or firearms, ect).

As to A4's opinion of the FAM program in general, hes far more experianced with it then I am and givin his level of proffesional experiance with firearms Ill take that opinion in mind.

Also as far as weapons and Caliber, last I checked Federal Air Marshells carry DAK Sig P229's in .357 Sig.

My point was that this poor guy running down the jet-way there was ZERO chance that he had an explosive device of any kind. The screening system prevents that with absolute certainty.

These FAM's were in my opinion playing loose with their weapons. Simply not complying with the verbal order of a law enforcement officer is not justification to kill - physical constraints, yes, but not lethal force.

I suspect the shooter will have a fair amount of guilt and soul searching to deal with ...

 

[A4sForever]

This is why the prospect of a loose round in the cabin doesn't keep me awake at night .......

..... ALOHA 243 ... BTW, do you think that THESE pilots rate their pension???

 

[VarmintShooter]

My point was that this poor guy running down the jet-way there was ZERO chance that he had an explosive device of any kind. The screening system prevents that with absolute certainty.

Huh? Absolute certainty? Zero chance? You're kidding, right?

I sure wish there was zero chance to sneak explosives or weapons by the screeners, but if that were the case then we wouldn't need the FAM program at all, would we?

 

[Lawman]

My point was that this poor guy running down the jet-way there was ZERO chance that he had an explosive device of any kind. The screening system prevents that with absolute certainty.

These FAM's were in my opinion playing loose with their weapons. Simply not complying with the verbal order of a law enforcement officer is not justification to kill - physical constraints, yes, but not lethal force.

I suspect the shooter will have a fair amount of guilt and soul searching to deal with ...

That screening system has failed before and is not nor will it ever be infaulable. If it did they wouldnt have arrested that idiot who joked about having a bomb because they would have automatically ruled that out and assumed he was an a@@hat.

Non-Compliance with a verbal command when the threat of lethal force exists is a perfectly acceptable reason for using deadly force. Two, there is no assured way of knowing your subject is unarmed and posses no threat until he is on the ground in handcuffs and has been searched. Till that time everybody is a threat, and somebody screaming I have a bomb is a threat to everyone. You error on the side of officer safety, its bad when stuff like this happens but you always go that way over gambling that the subject isnt really a threat.

 

[A4sForever]

The greatest problem, to me, with a "security zone" around the people-places in the airport --- outside the present screening areas --- is that you are, in effect, "DISARMED" when coming into and out of the airport. The parking areas are notoriously high crime areas --- up to and including murder, rape, etc. Example ??? The SEATAC parking garage, just for starters ....

I can only wait for the same no-brain, one-size-fits-all, "zero-tolerance" policies (zero-tolerance: I love it ..... it's an excuse for bureaucratic incompetence and the inability to make a decision) to hit the shopping malls of America. Then you will REALLY know what it's like to be in a war zone, alone, unarmed, and unable to protect yourself ....

I certainly don't know if this was a "good" shooting, or not --- wasn't there. On the surface, it seems like overzealous and ..... "overkill" ... ???

 

[Brett327]

My point was that this poor guy running down the jet-way there was ZERO chance that he had an explosive device of any kind. The screening system prevents that with absolute certainty.

Don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

Brett