NEWS Air Force leadership talks frankly about pilot retention

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

You guys are screening your DHs when they only have 3 years in? As in not even done with their sea tours and still under MSR? Of course you can claim selectivity, you're screening JGs. Aviation side last year the average for O-4 selection between pilots/NFOs was 84%. You have to screen O-4 to even be considered for the DH board. I couldn't find last year's results for the exact numbers, but one lessons learned from 2013 I saw had a 60% OP DH screen rate, which seems pretty consistent from what I recall. .6*.84 = only 50% of those who have remained in the Navy get screened for OP DH. Pretty damn competitive from the aviation side.

@azguy can chime in, but for the SWO community it's usually midway through their second DIVO at sea tour that COs/FITREPs can tell if a SWO is DH material or not. Shore duty the next 2/3 years doesn't really help convey if you're DH at sea material since you're away from the ship.

I personally like the idea because in the event you're not screened for SWO DH you have a few years to either LAT Xfer or plan for a civilian career afterwards.

 

[sevenhelmet]

From navy.mil last year: "Active duty officers who sign ADHRB contracts incur five years of obligated service and agree to be considered by the Aviation Department Head Screen Board (ADHSB) and, if selected, to accept department head orders and complete a department head tour. "

The way I read it, the obligation incurs from taking the King's gold. But if you FOSx2, it's another commitment the Navy can waive in order to get you out the door at the seven-month mark.

Correct. If you take the money, you agree to stay around until the payout is complete and do a DH tour. That usually means a DH tour + one more set of follow on orders. Where it gets confusing is that pilots often aren't eligible for the bonus (MSR - 1yr.) until after their first ADHSB. However, once you sign for the $, you can't voluntarily resign or refuse DH orders without paying the bonus back, regardless of whether you've selected or not. You may even sign for the bonus after being passed over once for DH. On the flip side, if you don't take the money, you may drop your letter and resign even after being selected for DH, although it's considered very poor form to do so. There are chances to tell the board and/or the detailers beforehand if DH isn't your gig, even if you're >1 year from separating and haven't dropped your letter yet.

Bottom line, don't take the DH bonus unless you're sure. Playing the odds you won't get selected is foolish, no matter what your perceptions are about your fitreps, etc.

 

[DanMa1156]

From navy.mil last year: "Active duty officers who sign ADHRB contracts incur five years of obligated service and agree to be considered by the Aviation Department Head Screen Board (ADHSB) and, if selected, to accept department head orders and complete a department head tour. "

The way I read it, the obligation incurs from taking the King's gold. But if you FOSx2, it's another commitment the Navy can waive in order to get you out the door at the seven-month mark.

So having to stick around to FOSx2 - what does that add on, roughly an extra year of service for most aviators?

Rough timeline:

Commission
Commissioning +2 = rough time most people wing, 8 year commitment begins.
Winging +2 = put on LT.
Winging + 8-9 = approximate time most people screen for DH, but also when most non-TACAIR dudes have to do 2 years on their Disassociated Sea Tour (right? If you get 2 year orders you have to serve them; or can you just "quit" at MSR in the middle of those orders?) If I'm not mistaken, then, outside of TACAIR, wouldn't most people be on their mandatory Disassociated Sea tour anyway? Then, should they not screen, they keep what's been paid, and will be FOS'd at the end of those orders. Those who did not take the money could leave voluntarily.

 

[CommodoreMid]

If you have less than a year left from your PRD to your MSR while on your shore tour you don't have to go to sea if you drop your letter. A dude at my command who got out in the fall basically spent 4 years on shore duty as a result.

 

[DanMa1156]

If you have less than a year left from your PRD to your MSR while on your shore tour you don't have to go to sea if you drop your letter. A dude at my command who got out in the fall basically spent 4 years on shore duty as a result.

Yeah, I've seen this happen, but with only a rare exception here or there; at least in my community, they seem to be pretty good about ensuring your shore tour is outside of that range.

 

[sevenhelmet]

So having to stick around to FOSx2 - what does that add on, roughly an extra year of service for most aviators?

Rough timeline:

Commission
Commissioning +2 = rough time most people wing, 8 year commitment begins.
Winging +2 = put on LT.
Winging + 8-9 = approximate time most people screen for DH, but also when most non-TACAIR dudes have to do 2 years on their Disassociated Sea Tour (right? If you get 2 year orders you have to serve them; or can you just "quit" at MSR in the middle of those orders?) If I'm not mistaken, then, outside of TACAIR, wouldn't most people be on their mandatory Disassociated Sea tour anyway? Then, should they not screen, they keep what's been paid, and will be FOS'd at the end of those orders. Those who did not take the money could leave voluntarily.

CORRECTED: See Below.

 

[AFUAW]

I believe you have to finish the set of orders you're on- but you can separate at the end of your disassociated, if that's what you want to do.

No. You have to do one year if you're in a CONUS sea tour or two years if it's a shore tour. An overseas tour you have to do the whole thing. Plan accordingly. I quit one year into my disassociated.

 

[zippy]

If you have less than a year left from your PRD to your MSR while on your shore tour you don't have to go to sea if you drop your letter. A dude at my command who got out in the fall basically spent 4 years on shore duty as a result.

I've also seen commands and PERS intentionally short tour individuals to make sure their PRD was 13th months from their MSR to avoid them having the option to resign on shore duty...

 

[SynixMan]

I've got to be honest with you, seeing as I'm a bit far away from it, but I didn't realize that taking the bonus incurs an extra obligation. I was under the impression that selecting DH incurs the obligation right?

I mean, if a dude is an MP/MP guy - why wouldn't he try to take the money and run?

I think I am missing something about taking the bonus...

Absolute worst case if you were planning on getting out is getting FOSed once, picking up on your second look, missing the DH screen the first time, then picking up OP-T DH. That's four years in career limbo and then doing a DH tour that has little chance of letting you put on O5. For some people that may work (stable-ish job making good money) but I think I'd lose my mind.

I get that "quitting" is taboo and it's hard to walk away from a (somewhat) guaranteed check, but I also think people undervalue themselves and their skills. I haven't jumped yet but I plan on keeping as many doors open as I can. Part of that is not needing the bonus and thus not taking it.

 

[nittany03]

You guys are screening your DHs when they only have 3 years in? As in not even done with their sea tours and still under MSR? Of course you can claim selectivity, you're screening JGs. Aviation side last year the average for O-4 selection between pilots/NFOs was 84%. You have to screen O-4 to even be considered for the DH board. I couldn't find last year's results for the exact numbers, but one lessons learned from 2013 I saw had a 60% OP DH screen rate, which seems pretty consistent from what I recall. .6*.84 = only 50% of those who have remained in the Navy get screened for OP DH. Pretty damn competitive from the aviation side.

Shoe CRUDES DHs are O-3s; the XO is an O-4.

 

[HokiePilot]

I've also seen commands and PERS intentionally short tour individuals to make sure their PRD was 13th months from their MSR to avoid them having the option to resign on shore duty...

I don't know if it was intentional, but I did have a 34 month shore tour. That gave me 13 months between my MSR and PRD.

That said, Terminal leave starts Friday!

 

[CommodoreMid]

Shoe CRUDES DHs are O-3s; the XO is an O-4.

I get that, but considering the bar for making LT is not getting a DUI this isn't much of a screen.

 

[Flash]

Shoe CRUDES DHs are O-3s; the XO is an O-4.

Is that still the case? They were switching over to the fleet-up of XO to CO that we do in squadrons last I heard.

 

[azguy]

You guys are screening your DHs when they only have 3 years in?

This is a function of our career timeline. They're warfare qualified officers with 3 years of operational experience; yes they happen to be LTJGs. Aviation DH candidates can't have that much more fleet time, right? To @RUFiO181 's point above, we wouldn't gain any new insight by waiting to screen post-MSR because PERS-41 has made the decision to totally disregard the post-Divo shore duty FITREPs for administrative boards. The new bonus scheme is crafted to compel those that are screened to stay in; sure, some will get out, that's why the non-selects get a 2nd look the next year.

Of course you can claim selectivity, you're screening JGs... You have to screen O-4 to even be considered for the DH board... .6*.84 = only 50% of those who have remained in the Navy get screened for OP DH. Pretty damn competitive from the aviation side.

The flaw with this math is that someone with a strong enough record to select for DH would be strong enough to screen O-4 first. In other words, I don't think any of those 2x FOS's had any hope of screening for DH.

 

[Recovering LSO]

This is a function of our career timeline. They're warfare qualified officers with 3 years of operational experience; yes they happen to be LTJGs. Aviation DH candidates can't have that much more fleet time, right?

Point of order: most TACAIR guys will hit the fleet after three years of commissioned service. They'll show up to DH tour around the 11th year, so about eight years of "fleet time."