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Scooters Forever (A-4 Skyhawk Tribute Thread)
- Thread starter ea6bflyr
- Start date
He is not the only one. My Mom's cousin was a former Blue Angle #1 and the last Navy pilot shot down in Viet Nam. He was probably captured, but never returned. Here's his story:Jolly Roger said:
http://www.tailhook.org/HallSu99.htm
http://www.blueangels.org/History/Hall/POWMIA.htm
HAL Pilot said:
Leaving our POW's behind is probably the most shameful thing our government has ever done. There is absolutely no excuse for it -- only the rationalization of some "greater good". I met Henry Kissinger in Dallas at Jet East in 1982 --- we were having a pleasant 1V1 conversation until I broached the subject of POW/MIAs, whereupon the former Secretary excused himself and left the waiting lounge -- avoided and would not speak to me any further. Very courageous man ... no?
Vietnam is only the most egregious recent example of abandoning our POWs; but as most of you are aware, it's certainly not the only instance of this sorry chapter in our country's history. The list goes on: It began with the Russian Revolution and continues through every armed conflict up to present day in the Middle East ...
Jolly Roger said:
I dunno ... according to Bud Southworth -- one of the A4 experts, -- a guru , if you will -- amongst those in the A4 community, the following may be operative:
Quote:
On April 26, 1967, Lieutenant Commander Michael Estocin crashed in A-4E Skyhawk NM 208, Bureau Number 151073, as the result of a SAM hit; Lieutenant Commander Michael Estocin died (KIA) in that same crash on April 26, 1967. This is documented by witness Commander John B. Nichols and related in his book "On Yankee Station: The Naval Air War over Vietnam," pages 62 to 65. The action is also reported in many other books such as "The Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club" by Rene J. Francillon. Other Naval Aviators also witnessed the shootdown and are, without exception, positive Mike was killed at that time.
Several U. S. Government online databases, including the VA, report incorrect information about Mike Estocin. Such as the report: Tour of duty began 4/26/67; Casualty was on 10/11/77 in North Vietnam; Hostile died captured. THIS DATABASE INFORMATION IS INCORRECT. The purpose of these lies is either incompetent research or some political motivation. The Navy reported many pilots whose bodies were not recovered MIA "Missing in Action." The MIA matter and record should have been closed and updated at the end of the war and has not been for unknown political reasons. I and my fellow Vietnam combat pilots are offended and outraged by the continuation of the Government conclusion of Estocin's survival, capture and death in prison some ten years later. This is outrageous fiction and conjecture; it is not based on any fact!
Signed: Bud Southworth
Sooooo .... Trust the Government ? You know; the one that ALWAYS HAS AN AGENDA ?? Or trust the pilots that were there ... ??
Jolly Roger
Yes. I am a Pirate.
A4sForever said:
It is very plausable expanation. But how does it account for the care package that his wife recieved back with stuff added to it? Sick practical joke by the NVN?
Jolly Roger said:
It always has been to their advantage to keep this sore
open ... or is it closed? It seems to keep changing, depending
on what the Viets want in the way of $$$$ and trade at any
given moment. I am Waaaayy out of my league here, but I
believe some of the families have been taken advantage of
by fast buck artists - both here and overseas.
I would give anything to find MIAs still alive, but I think it is wishful thinking, at best. It could mean potential war with the captors, and our own government wishes the discussion would simply go away ... no change here. No one wants to be held accountable for leaving POWs behind ...
Jolly Roger
Yes. I am a Pirate.
A4sForever said:Maybe -- anything is possible with those NV baztardz.
It always has been to their advantage to keep this sore
open ... or is it closed? It seems to keep changing, depending
on what the Viets want in the way of $$$$ and trade at any
given moment. I am Waaaayy out of my league here, but I
believe some of the families have been taken advantage of
by fast buck artists - both here and overseas.
I would give anything to find MIAs still alive, but I think it is wishful thinking, at best. It could mean potential war with the captors, and our own government wishes the discussion would simply go away ... no change here. No one wants to be held accountable for leaving POWs behind ...
Right. VN is just now emerging from the shadows of that war. They seem to be moving away from the hardcore Maxist-Minhism and more towards capitalism, much the way the PRC has done. A lot of that has come from tourism. You can go to the Cu Tri tunnel complex and take a tour through the tunnels. They have made tourist attractions out of some of the old battlefields, like Cu Tri, my personal feelings are that if there were any men still in captivity they would have been released by now. As far as Capt Estocin goes he might have survived long enough to send that package to his family, but died in captivity.
I doubt that --- they are one of the most corrupt, hard-line Communist governments left around. And there ain't too many. The ONLY time they proffer an opening is when they think it will get them something -- just like the ChiComs, no? For confirmation, ask some of the Vietnamese in this country who still have ties to the "old country." I did ...Jolly Roger said:
But if the Viet Communists are "emerging", why do you suppost they still have a full-blown SAM site -- in the classic SA-2 "Star of David" pattern --- right next to the runway at DaNang? Who is the enemy this "emerging" country is defending against. China? The U.S.? Burma? Anyone ?
Don't let anyone fool you --- they are Communists first and foremost -- it's called POWER -- and they are C-R-A-P. I have some pictures of the Danang SAM site -- I will post thumbnails when I get around to it.
NVA SAM site. This isn't the current Danang model -- but it IS in Vietnam.
Who knows what they think about fighting anyone. Remember... they are a people that were at war constantly for generations... they fought the Chinese right after we were done there. Maybe they are just paranoid?
NOTE: This was moved from another thread, as it had nothing to do with the aforementioned thread and the "Scooter" deserves the "respect" of this one ... A4sForever
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ode to a "SCOOTER" ...
The short answer: quick handling and small size earned it the nickname of "Scooter". Initially dubbed 'Heinemann's Hot Rod' after chief design engineer Ed Heinemann, the A4 Skyhawk also sported nicknames such as :
Bantam Bomber; Ford; Tinker Toy; Mighty Mite; Camel (A-4F and subsequent models with avionics hump); Skyhog; Mongoose; Super Fox (A-4Fs with P-408 engines); "Squawk"/Kahu (New Zealand); Ahit/"Vulture" (Israel); and Chickenhawk (Australian Navy -- leave it to the Aussies to come up with something like that).
The Douglas design team had their marching orders in 1952: to take the best jet engine available, put a saddle for a jock on it, put a wing under it and leave out everything else. I guess they succeded ... So why "Scooter" specifically -- well, because of its size, speed, and maneuverability, it "scooted" over and around everything else in the AirWing on its introduction. It was handy, versatile, easy to maintain and easy to use (fly) -- all the qualities one would desire in a "scooter" -- or a mount to ride into battle. She only failed me once in 2200+ hours (and that is a LOT of 1.0 and 0.9 flights) but it wasn't her -- or my -- fault.
Everyone will have their favorites, but in the jet era of Naval Aviation, you will have to look long and hard to find a more perfect example of a true Pilot's Airplane ... too bad you guys showed up late.
Whenever asked ... I tell 'em the Boeing 747 is my "SECOND" favorite all-time airplane. Guess which one is first ?? :icon_wink
ROGER BALL !!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fly Navy said:
The short answer: quick handling and small size earned it the nickname of "Scooter". Initially dubbed 'Heinemann's Hot Rod' after chief design engineer Ed Heinemann, the A4 Skyhawk also sported nicknames such as :
Bantam Bomber; Ford; Tinker Toy; Mighty Mite; Camel (A-4F and subsequent models with avionics hump); Skyhog; Mongoose; Super Fox (A-4Fs with P-408 engines); "Squawk"/Kahu (New Zealand); Ahit/"Vulture" (Israel); and Chickenhawk (Australian Navy -- leave it to the Aussies to come up with something like that).
The Douglas design team had their marching orders in 1952: to take the best jet engine available, put a saddle for a jock on it, put a wing under it and leave out everything else. I guess they succeded ...
So why "Scooter" specifically -- well, because of its size, speed, and maneuverability, it "scooted" over and around everything else in the AirWing on its introduction. It was handy, versatile, easy to maintain and easy to use (fly) -- all the qualities one would desire in a "scooter" -- or a mount to ride into battle. She only failed me once in 2200+ hours (and that is a LOT of 1.0 and 0.9 flights) but it wasn't her -- or my -- fault.Everyone will have their favorites, but in the jet era of Naval Aviation, you will have to look long and hard to find a more perfect example of a true Pilot's Airplane ... too bad you guys showed up late.
Whenever asked ... I tell 'em the Boeing 747 is my "SECOND" favorite all-time airplane. Guess which one is first ?? :icon_wink
YUP, but perhaps that is because I have @ 1100 hours in the A-6 and over 14,500 in the WHALE ... the only box I do not have checked in the WHALE is to, how you say ... fly from Tokyo to Honolulu <500' >500 knots. Then I will be complete ...skidkid said:
Here's a new pregnant whale for you...http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/photorelease/q1/pr_050218g.htmlA4sForever said:YUP, but perhaps that is because I have @ 1100 hours in the A-6 and over 14,500 in the WHALE ... the only box I do not have checked in the WHALE is to, how you say ... fly from Tokyo to Honolulu <500' >500 knots. Then I will be complete ...
WHALE BALL !!
Too bad we didn't choose the 747 as the new MMA, lol. Carry a couple THOUSAND sono buoys, forget those dinky 50s or 46s, lets go Mk 48 ADCAP baby!, throw in an optional Air Force turretted laser, a starbucks, and all would be golden.A4sForever said:the only box I do not have checked in the WHALE is to, how you say ... fly from Tokyo to Honolulu <500' >500 knots. Then I will be complete ...
WHALE BALL !!
I still think the footage of the 707 doing a barrell role is one of the most amazing pieces of footage, you sure that isn't a "check in the box" too? Or has it already been done on an oceanic flight
, jkEveryone has been posting the great pictures, and video of aviators doing aviators things. Glad to see some of it (at least as far as 2000) is still going on. Though I get depressed when you read articles about F14 drivers buzzing their mom's elementary (?) school she teaches at in Virginia, and getting busted on it. Or the NI geezer society that partied it up and broke all the rules when THEY were in, but can't handle the noise of us landing.....