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MEDALS?? We don't NEED no STEEEENKIN' badges !!! *split thread*

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The awards system as it currently operates is ridiculous (I think we can all agree on that), but it's a product of the times in which we live. Couple a culture where entitlement is the norm rather than the exception, with a bueaucratic machine that spends so much time wringing its hands over language on the write up - we shouldn't be surprised at the results. When the lead time for an award that gets signed by a CCSG is 120 days (I.E. a FLOC), you're effectively writing awards for a list of people whose preformance you predict will be award worthy. Awards inflation? You bet, but we can't roll the system back to where it was - the system places expectations on people. I've seen COs and DCAGs try, but they will ultimately only hurt their own people who will be perceived as "not keeping up with the pack." The solution? Unfortunately, there's really isn't one. We have to resign ourselves to the notion that the awards system carries a tremendous amount of inertia. Think big Navy can set things straight? Remember the whole FITREP policy change where 4.0 became 5.0 to reduce FITREP inflation? How'd that work out? No AO, CO, CAG or CCSG is going to "fix" the system by pretending to put their foot down - it's a fools errand. My solution is to just go with the flow, do what's expected and not worry about those things or policies which I'm powerless to change. There are much better things to spend one's limited resources on.

Brett
 

MAKE VAPES

Uncle Pettibone
pilot
My Air Force O-3 "Cop" just came to my door to initiate the chow train, yacking about this thread he stupidly informed me that he has 2 "well" deserved MSMs.... I nearly pissed myself laughing. In '06 apparently, all land and air "squadron" CO's on Al Udied got Bronze Stars, the E-8's wanted them too, and nearly revolted.... Pussies all.

A Navy Department head dropping bombs and running the Maint Department gets an end of tour NCM, the skipper gets an MSM, and Air Force O-3's have two of the later at 9years in... I think we found the source of the problem... hooyah joint pollution. A few of the best parts of each service, ALL THE WORST PARTS.
 

flaps

happy to be here
None
Contributor
my father and 2 uncles served in ww11 for a total of 12 years. dont think the 3 of them added together had three rows of ribbons. even with one uncle's ph and bs.
 

HackerF15E

Retired Strike Pig Driver
None
My Air Force O-3 "Cop" just came to my door to initiate the chow train, yacking about this thread he stupidly informed me that he has 2 "well" deserved MSMs.... I nearly pissed myself laughing. In '06 apparently, all land and air "squadron" CO's on Al Udied got Bronze Stars, the E-8's wanted them too, and nearly revolted.... Pussies all.

A Navy Department head dropping bombs and running the Maint Department gets an end of tour NCM, the skipper gets an MSM, and Air Force O-3's have two of the later at 9years in... I think we found the source of the problem... hooyah joint pollution. A few of the best parts of each service, ALL THE WORST PARTS.

For as much as I will gladly join in railing on the "easy medals" train (and the occasional bust on Big Blue, too), I have to say that's HIGHLY unusual, even for the USAF.
 

dephyler

Member
Contributor
Are you saying you and your reserve compatriots deserve a sea service deployment ribbon, and that the IS1 should have gotten a Bronze star and that the JG should have gotten a V???

In my attempt to be brief, I sacrificed clarity, so my bad. Firstly, I don't think they deserve anything. But if they performed actions worthy of recognition, then it's great if they receive it. Whether or not they performed an action meeting the standards of a given award is not for me to decide. The signing authority makes that call. Just like with FITREP scores, some COs bars are lower than others. My point was that while the system is flawed, I don't throw out awards after a glance, or judge a sailor by what they've got. For me, they're a conversation starter.

Secondly, in the individual cases of my guys, I couldn't do their stories justice if I tried because they're theirs. At first glance, they look like they've done shit-all because of the presence of "asskisser awards." This is especially true if judged on a lack of SSR or V device scale, but it's far from the truth. This debate comes up all the time, and just a month ago I heard, "they're just giving Bronze Stars away." I've chosen to step away from that mentality because it's that prejudice that pollutes the award for the guys that earn it. Some blame the system for the pollution, but I chose to blame my own attitude towards the system, and I changed my attitude.
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I agree, much of the undesirable administration of the awards system is due to jointness and the current culture of entitlement and self esteem. I was a cold war guy through and through. Even when there was a brief shoot 'em up, I was in the wrong ocean or wrong unit. During my time even NAMs and NCMs etc were fairly rare. As I recall, our squadron skipper could award something like 2 NAMs to Os and 3 to Es post cruise. A NCM you saw maybe once a year, tops. I never saw a JO get and end of tour award, Majors, rarely. Mind you this was before we were really on the jointness bandwagon and felt we had to compete with the other services for chest candy. And, of course, it was before our current entitlement culture. One of the very best officers and aviators I ever knew was a peer who had a single pistol qual ribbon (this was before the Nat Def Medal came back). The guy was shit hot in every way. He went on to command a reserve unit. On the issue of judging a guy by his awards, my wife had a young guy in her office interviewing for a job. He was a resent vet, which she really appreciated until he notice a photo of me in uniform behind her desk. His comment, without being able to see what awards I was wearing in the picture, " Wow, O-5 and only two rows. Must not have done much." Wow, he isn't doing ANYTHING in her firm! :icon_wink
 

fattestfoot

In it for the naked volleyball
I feel that the "medal factory" mentality that we've fallen into collectively has cheapened the system. So much so, in my personal experience, that I end up looking at the number of SSDRs a guy has (and his rank) before I give any credence to his personal awards.

For our older members: what you may not realize is that there is a new culture of awards now (in my opinion). I don't know how it worked in your day, but now there is an expectation that I don't think existed in your day. Maybe it did. I'd like to hear more about how is was way back when.

Today, people expect an end-of-tour award. They feel screwed if they didn't get one.

People sometimes write up their own awards. Sometimes BEFORE the action occurs. Sometimes they have their subordinates do it for them. People "campaign" for awards. I have personally witnessed this both in the Navy and the Marine Corps.

I agree here, with exception being the MoH. For some reason, the President (or more likely higher HQ's) has been extremely reluctant in awarding them. In a decade of war, 8 have been awarded, only one to a living recipient. That's with TWO wars going on. There were 246 in Vietnam. Talk all your want about how the wars now are fought differently, but there's no way that can be right. Some of the actions that would have earned a MoH in the past get downgraded -- sometimes significantly -- because for some reason the medal has become too sanctimonious. I don't know the numbers for the DSC/Navy Cross/Air Force Cross, but I've heard of very few being awarded as well.

Not that it's necessarily up to me to decide who is deserving of it, but I know of one E-6 in Iraq that ended up with an Army Commendation Medal with Valour device for something that, 40 years ago would have likely earned him a Medal of Honor.

Anyways, the part that really bothers me is the Bronze Star. In the Army at least, the Bronze Star was seen as a end of deployment award for all staff JO's (and occasionally E-7 and up). At the same time, there were several people who earned Bronze Stars with V's who probably should have had a higher award. The issue to me was that you're essentially rewarding someone who did staff action with someone who performed valorously in combat with the same award (basically with an asterix next to it saying see citation). This is where the awarding of certain medals cheapens the rest.

The worst part is what you, and a few others, have touched on. The fact that end of deployment awards are typically required to be turned in to certain points of the CoC for review prior to the deployment ending. I assume someone decided this was a good idea so that you could give someone their medal right as they got home. Unfortunately that means you're now not only cheapening the medal for the guys that actually deserved it by giving it to the (potentially) undeserving, you're doing it to the (potentially) undeserving before they've even done anything!

In the end, my view is that anything that sits below a Silver Star or without a Valour device in someone's rack probably has some explanation behind it (e.g. they really warranted something better and the CoC dropped the ball, it was handed out like candy). For those that don't fall into that category, I can probably give unconditional respect to the actions of the person that earned it.

Just as one last point, for those who say I may be forgetting the Purple Heart: During one of my OIF deployments, our compound came under "attack." A bullet hit a wall, threw a chunk of debris off that hit a guy in the arm. He was bleeding, but required no stitches (read: it probably needed a band-aid, but if he used one he'd get made fun of). The command put him in for a Purple Heart. BEFORE the award was approved, the CoC found out that it was really a US Army unit (no indig.) that was firing on an empty building that they suspected someone was in. Their lack of SA caused the wound. The CoC didn't pull the Purple Heart. So now you've got a guy with a boo-boo who wears it because some idiot shot at an empty building and nearly hit a friendly. The conclusion of this story applies to the whole thread: Not all medals are created equal.
 

Schnugg

It's gettin' a bit dramatic 'round here...
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
This man, my father-in-law, received two DFC while flying Spooky 13 every night for several years in Vietnam. He was also overhead during the Tet Offensive. He's never been one to brag and keeps the medals in a case on a shelf. He'd only bring it out if you specifically ask.

A humble man:
IMG_5779.jpg


Today
CIMG2873.jpg


A few years ago:
CIMG2988.jpg


This man, my Great Uncle, earned his, too.
CIMG0039.jpg
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
When the lead time for an award that gets signed by a CCSG is 120 days (I.E. a FLOC), you're effectively writing awards for a list of people whose preformance you predict will be award worthy.

Lumpy and I had a conversation about this awhile back. Herein lies a lot of inflation: why would I as an AO try to "extrapolate" a guys performance almost 6mo out for a FLOC (worth 1pt I think?) when I can easily get him a NAM from the Skipper the day of quarters that is worth more awards points? A FLOC a the squadron level involves THREE chop chains (Squadron, Wing, and then Flag) of pain, questions, and delays. A "day of" NAM, while demonstrative of poor admin work, involves maybe a dirty look from the Skipper for letting someone fall between the cracks.

And I've related this one that still sticks with me a few times. It was a conversation between an Squadron CO and an Airboss that was related to me:
CO: I've made it my personal mission to combat awards inflation. I only give NAMs to guys who I think really deserve them!
Boss: I gave NAMs to everyone I could. That's why my sailors will get promoted over yours.
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Just for general interest and reference...

A "friend of mine" was part of an Alpha Strike going in just south of heavily defended Hanoi. But he was an in-flight abort due to comm. problems. He had started to return the ship when suddenly his comm. problem vanished.

Too late now to rejoining the Strike package (the last thing anyone wanted to do was come in on target late after a strike), he rendezvoused with another straggler, and together that section went in to the nearer, pre-briefed secondary target of the strike – the Dong Song bypass bridge. (Note: Only 2 planes now, rather than the support of 30+)

Fortunately or magically, for a couple of JO F-4 duffers, they actually dropped a span of this hi-value bridge with dumb MK-82s. In fact this bridge was not only the secondary target of that Midway Alpha Strike, it was also the primary target for a 30 plane Alpha Strike off the Kitty Hawk that afternoon.

And what award did these four guys in two F-4s get for downing a bridge worthy of two Alpha Strikes? Absolutely nothing!

Reason – they hardly took any serious enemy fire if any.

That was just the way of the world back then. We didn't really think too much about it.

[Note: Enemy fire, especially substantial enemy fire was one of a number of prerequisites for any medal, even an NCM, much less and Air Medal. The only sure thing for us was: if you bagged a MiG it was an automatic Silver Star. Anything else was really hard to get and rare. BTW, I never knew anyone back then who had a Bronze Star. I always thought that was just Army stuff.]
 

helolumpy

Apprentice School Principal
pilot
Contributor
As I recall, our squadron skipper could award something like 2 NAMs to Os and 3 to Es post cruise. A NCM you saw maybe once a year, tops.

You are correct, but the number of NAMs was based on your unit size. An O-5 command of under 200 people were authorized 2 NAMs per year. We'd usually use them for SOY or maybe for a well deserving E-6 who was going up for Chief in an over-manned rating. That's how it was in 1995 and before.

I'm not sure exactly when the Awards instruction changed (post-1997, but pre-2002), but now O-5 commands can give out NAM's like PEZ if the CO so desires.

I think that had the single greatest impact on the issue that folks are discussing now. NAM's are 'free' to hand out. The paperwork is minimal (as Pags referred to) and it's 2 points for your troops vice 1 point that the standard FLOC gets.

Until there is some accountability of CO's giving out excessive awards, it will be "inflation". I would equate it to FITREP scores. Until BUPERS started actually tracking the scores a CO gave, there was no impact to a CO give 5.0's out multiple times. Now, if he/she gives a 5.0 (since Reporting Seniors Average is tracked and is viewed by promotion boards), it will have an impact on his/her RSA forever.

Until there is some manner to track the number of awards out with an accountability process, then CO's will keep NAMs in petty cash and hand them out at kids birthdays.

As a great man once said; "Medals for all my friends"!!
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Lumpy and I had a conversation about this awhile back. Herein lies a lot of inflation: why would I as an AO try to "extrapolate" a guys performance almost 6mo out for a FLOC (worth 1pt I think?) when I can easily get him a NAM from the Skipper the day of quarters that is worth more awards points? A FLOC a the squadron level involves THREE chop chains (Squadron, Wing, and then Flag) of pain, questions, and delays. A "day of" NAM, while demonstrative of poor admin work, involves maybe a dirty look from the Skipper for letting someone fall between the cracks.

I've been down that road before and I agree that the NAM is almost always the easiest route to go, but you'll have awardees that meet "the standard" for a FLOC but not a that expected of a NAM. So, does the front office or DH just say "fuck it" and contribute to additional award inflation because it's the most expedient method, or "do the right thing" while trying to figure out who your worthy players will be? It's a conundrum to be sure. I've seen it handled all kinds of ways, to include bumping a FLOC up to a NAM because the paperwork didn't meet the Flag deadline for an EOT award. Most of the time, sucking up the lead time and forecasting who your worthy troops are going to be is the better of two shitty options. It just sucks to be writing EOC awards when you're 6 weeks into cruise. Sign of the times.

Brett
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Medal of Honor Awards in Naval Aviation To Naval Aviators and Naval Aviation Pilots in
Connection with Aviation.

LINKY (pdf)
 

fattestfoot

In it for the naked volleyball
Thanks for the link, Cat. I kind of have to wonder about those 6 at the bottom for the space program though. I mean, I guess you can say they were risking their lives for something no man had ever accomplished. But a valour medal for it? Just doesn't quite fit for the actions. I guess there isn't really anything else that fits what they did, but it's kind of like giving a Good Conduct Medal to someone for their volunteer work.
 

pilot_man

Ex-Rhino driver
pilot
I really think that there is a level of misunderstanding on this thread, both in general, and specifically on my posts.

For whatever reason, the older members seem to think that I am criticizing awards from their generation. That couldn't be further from the truth.

In reality, I am defending them. I feel that the "medal factory" mentality that we've fallen into collectively has cheapened the system. So much so, in my personal experience, that I end up looking at the number of SSDRs a guy has (and his rank) before I give any credence to his personal awards.

I couldn't agree with HD more. Times are changing and not for the better. For reference BzB, on one tour to Afghanistan I received 2 Air medals. All that I really had to do to get these medals was to launch off the boat, fly in country, get gas, and land back on the boat a certain number of times. By dropping ordnance, I get more points for the AM, but that is just me doing my job. I also get more points for getting shot at, but lets all be serious here, there is a big difference when comparing what these cavemen are shooting and what you gents back in the day went through. It's been a while since anything like Stroke 3's flight. Those guys deserve the works. IMHO, doing your job does not equal medals.
 
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