MEDALS?? We don't NEED no STEEEENKIN' badges !!! *split thread*

[Catmando]

Thanks for the link, Cat. I kind of have to wonder about those 6 at the bottom for the space program though. I mean, I guess you can say they were risking their lives for something no man had ever accomplished. But a valour medal for it? Just doesn't quite fit for the actions. I guess there isn't really anything else that fits what they did, but it's kind of like giving a Good Conduct Medal to someone for their volunteer work.

Agree. I was surprised about that too. Apparently, it is a separate MOH, under the name of the "Space" Medal of Honor. Not the "real" one. Yet it still upsets me.

Politics, I suppose. My guess is that our astronauts are privately embarresd by being lumped into such an elite and august group of real MOH awardees.

While every space launch had its risks, and accomplishments, the guys who fly off of the haze-grey-and-underway risk their lives daily, rather than just a few times in space. And their accomplishments are legion. [But don't get me started on that! ]

 

[PerDiem]

Speaking of FLOCs, I have to say that I'm prouder of the FLOC I received after a deployment on an FFG working in deck division than I am of the EOT NAM I received in a P-3 squadron, even though I don't get to wear it on my chest. I definitely busted my ass more on a frigate. Showing up and doing my job at a squadron was just another day at the office.

 

[Pags]

I've been down that road before and I agree that the NAM is almost always the easiest route to go, but you'll have awardees that meet "the standard" for a FLOC but not a that expected of a NAM. So, does the front office or DH just say "fuck it" and contribute to additional award inflation because it's the most expedient method, or "do the right thing" while trying to figure out who your worthy players will be? It's a conundrum to be sure. I've seen it handled all kinds of ways, to include bumping a FLOC up to a NAM because the paperwork didn't meet the Flag deadline for an EOT award. Most of the time, sucking up the lead time and forecasting who your worthy troops are going to be is the better of two shitty options. It just sucks to be writing EOC awards when you're 6 weeks into cruise. Sign of the times.

Brett

There are two other problems I found with FLOCs: One is that they tended to disappear into the Wing or Flag admin. You'd meet the deadline and then the Wing would swear they never had it. While not an an award, I had to send three copies of a MOA to another unit to get one signed. The final one was sent fedex'd so I'd have the name of the guy who signed for it. My fleet squadron had a permanently forward deployed det. Over there, you'd ID a Sailor as being FLOC worthy and send in the paper to get it taken care of. And then nothing would happen for MONTHS. The ENTIRE chain of command would turn over so many times that the fact that the det was waiting for this award got lost in the shuffle. And then good sailors wouldn't get awards. Poor Admin performance for routine paperwork is what makes it so damned difficult to get a FLOC back in any amount of time. The other issue was what if you didn't have the prerequisite lead time? For whatever reason, a guy got orders earlier than expected or the actual orders popped late and now you're well inside the FLOC window. Now you have the fight of getting an ISIC to waive their deadlines.

 

[BACONATOR]

I don't know crap about the TACAMO deployment scenarios, and even less about you personally.

My advice to you, and anybody else who cares about medals, is this:

You know who you are and what you have done. So do the people you directly serve with. Nobody else's opinion matters. If medals make you happy, great. If you don't get any, the people who matter to you know what you did anyway, so it doesn't matter.

From what I know about various medals and their relative "awesomeness" without knowing the full story in each case, I'd say this:

99.99% of Medals of Honor are legit.

95% of Navy Crosses are legit.

90% of Silver Stars are legit.

50% of Bronze Stars are legit.

30% of Combat Action Ribbons are legit.

20% of all "V"s and single mission air medals are legit.

10% of all End of Tour admin awards are legit.

100% of Sea Service Deployment Ribbons are legit.

What do I mean by "legit"? When you hear the whole story from other people who were there, you say "Wow. That's no shit."

All data above was collected from the Harrier Dude Institute of Estimation. All rights reserved.

There are so many medals/ribbons and it's hard to keep track of them. Because I was TASKED in finding out as the det ADMIN O, I know that in FDNF commands, you warrant wearing the SSD ribbon after a year in the command, PERIOD. No deployment required. Yet I still see people not wearing it who have been here for over a year because they haven't read the 1650 and don't know the pre-reqs for it (They think you need time at sea). Regardless, if you have to bust out pubs and read through paragraphs of text to find out if you can wear a ribbon or not.... it's probably bullshit. When you earn a LEGIT medal/award, there is no looking up of qualifying pre-requisites required.

In my mind, the important awards are GIVEN to you, by someone else who knows what you did and did the legwork for you.

Of course, for the Es, award points are important, but for me PERSONALLY, I didn't join the military to wear a bunch of ribbons. I couldn't possibly care less.

 

[Gatordev]

I may be misunderstanding your post, so if so, let me know. However...

I couldn't agree with HD more. Times are changing and not for the better. For reference BzB, on one tour to Afghanistan I received 2 Air medals. All that I really had to do to get these medals was to launch off the boat, fly in country, get gas, and land back on the boat a certain number of times. By dropping ordnance, I get more points for the AM, but that is just me doing my job. I also get more points for getting shot at, but lets all be serious here, there is a big difference when comparing what these cavemen are shooting and what you gents back in the day went through. It's been a while since anything like Stroke 3's flight. Those guys deserve the works. IMHO, doing your job does not equal medals.

While technically an "Air Medal," you're not earning the same award as someone who landed their plane w/ one wing and half an engine. You're referring to a Strike Flight Air Medal (I know you know this, just saying it for clarity), which has different criteria. Now whether the Strike Flight medals have any validity, yeah, that's a whole other question.

 

[Brett327]

The sad thing is, the Military can't give out bonuses (that matter) or pay raises, Medals have to do.

For example, Transocean just gave all of its executives bonuses and pay raises for their exemplary safety record in 2010. http://blogs.forbes.com/jeffmcmahon/2011/04/02/transocean-bonuses-deepwater-horizon-gulf-spill/

Bonuses are a force-shaping tool. They've never been about rewarding exemplary performance.

Brett

 

[Flash]

The astronauts received the "Congressional Space Medal of Honor". Different animal. Not to diminish their great achievements and sacrifice, but it is a civilian award, not military. Military can wear it behind all military awards but the recipients of the "Congressional Space Medal of Honor" are not recipients of the "Medal of Honor". They are also not listed on CMOHS.org

Agree. I was surprised about that too. Apparently, it is a separate MOH, under the name of the "Space" Medal of Honor. Not the "real" one. Yet it still upsets me.

Politics, I suppose. My guess is that our astronauts are privately embarresd by being lumped into such an elite and august group of real MOH awardees.

While every space launch had its risks, and accomplishments, the guys who fly off of the haze-grey-and-underway risk their lives daily, rather than just a few times in space. And their accomplishments are legion. [But don't get me started on that! ]

Not sure why you would be upset about it or why the astronauts who have received it would be embarrassed, they are completely different awards and no one who knows anything about hem mistakes them as such. I have no idea why the Navy Historical Center would lump the Congressional Space Medal of Honor in with the Medal of Honor since the only similarity is the name just like the Congressional Gold Medal, which often has 'of honor' incorrectly appended to the end of it (one reason some biographies list Billy Mitchell as having received the Medal of honor when he only received the Congressional Gold Medal).

If you want to get annoyed then maybe you should get so with Floyd Bennett and Richard Byrd who both received it for their flight over the North Pole. Somewhat relevant to this thread since it shows that the threshold for awarding the Medal of Honor, long the only medal that could be awarded for valor or bravery even non-combat actions in the Navy before WWII (including one in 1945), was much lower back then than it was today. Same with the Navy Cross, which was the only other medal for valor in combat available to sailors and Marines for actions not involving flying at the beginning of WWII. Just because it is doesn't mean it always was....

 

[phrogdriver]

Different eras, different problems.

For example, in the old, old days, the Medal of Honor was the ONLY award--during the Civil War, it was even given to an entire regiment just for re-enlisting. It was even given for several non-combat actions in the following decades. Only since WWI has it really assumed its sacred status.

The Bronze Star was originally the ground guys' equivalent of an Air Medal during WWII. It followed an upward trajectory of importance after that. In recent years, it's had some issues. In my observation, today the ones with "V" device are usually unquestionably deserved. The ones without, well, many are, and some are questionable.
The Vietnam era, at least from my second-hand knowledge, had a lot of corruption on the part of senior officers, but not so much on the junior side--e.g. colonels and above getting high-level valor awards for doing C2 from the back of a Huey.

I don't think the valor awards are an issue today. The standards for the MOH and NC are as high as ever. Probably the Silver Star fits in there too. The issue is the preponderance of peacetime awards. Sometimes I think we should do away with non-combat awards altogether.

There have been medal hounds for the longest time, and until the system is shaken up, top to bottom, there always will be. Don't judge a guy by what medals he has or doesn't have. I've seen total clowns get MSMs, and rock-stars get squat. Until you work or fly next to a man, you don't know which he is.

As a junior to mid-grade leader you have to admit to yourself that you can't change the system. I am a huge fan of the LOC and Meritorious Mast. Those are quick kills. They keep the players motivated and don't cost nothin'. As far as getting guys promoted, the fastest way to do it is to make sure you don't let a group/wing meritorious promotion board go by without making sure you have as many candidates on it as possible.

For all the doom and gloom, I don't think this is a "sky is falling" situation. I think we just have different problems. As someone once said,"The more things change..."

 

[Catmando]

Not sure why you would be upset about it or why the astronauts who have received it would be embarrassed, they are completely different awards and no one who knows anything about hem mistakes them as such. I have no idea why the Navy Historical Center would lump the Congressional Space Medal of Honor in with the Medal of Honor since the only similarity is the name just like the Congressional Gold Medal, which often has 'of honor' incorrectly appended to the end of it (one reason some biographies list Billy Mitchell as having received the Medal of honor when he only received the Congressional Gold Medal).

If you want to get annoyed then maybe you should get so with Floyd Bennett and Richard Byrd who both received it for their flight over the North Pole. Somewhat relevant to this thread since it shows that the threshold for awarding the Medal of Honor, long the only medal that could be awarded for valor or bravery even non-combat actions in the Navy before WWII (including one in 1945), was much lower back then than it was today. Same with the Navy Cross, which was the only other medal for valor in combat available to sailors and Marines for actions not involving flying at the beginning of WWII. Just because it is doesn't mean it always was....

I have no problem with the award, or those astronauts who receive it. My problem is with the name of the award. There is only one Medal of Honor, so they should have picked another different name for their award and not infringed on a singular and sacred to many, award.

Contrary to what you state, the average person does not usually differentiate between the Medal of Honor and the Space Medal of honor. Most do not know. But even if they do, the name still is misleading.

I am well aware of how the requisites for awards have changed over time, and I have no problem with that. However Bennett and Byrd were in a far different timeframe, with far different rules. In their time, the award was perhaps appropriate.

However astronauts are our contemporaries, not early 20th century or WWII aviators. Thus their award must be judged by contemporary standards.

And my contemporary standard says they need to change the name of that "Space Medal of Honor!"

 

[SWACQ]

I'm probably a contributor to the problem in regard to NAMs. I figure if the CO has authority to give out as many NAMs as he wants, I'm going to write up the guys I want. I think I've written about 6 or 7 NAMs in the past year, and the CO has signed them all. I don't do this for every swinging dick, but I do it for the guys who work hard, and I don't care if they are just doing their job. Somehow 20% of the guys who are "just doing their job" end up doing 80% of the work. I give those guys a NAM.

The only thing that pisses me off about a bunch of NAMs being given out is when a group of Marines get the same damn write-up. I figure if you're going to give them an award, at least take the time to give each Marine their own citation write-up to be read individually.

 

[pilot_man]

I may be misunderstanding your post, so if so, let me know. However...



While technically an "Air Medal," you're not earning the same award as someone who landed their plane w/ one wing and half an engine. You're referring to a Strike Flight Air Medal (I know you know this, just saying it for clarity), which has different criteria. Now whether the Strike Flight medals have any validity, yeah, that's a whole other question.

Yes, yes, sorry for the confusion. I am referring to the Air Medal (Strike/Flight Award).

 

[Kaman]

I was always embarrassed when I was in uniform and someone would ask me about some of my decorations. Especially, the NCM because I basically received that for flying in and around Somalia doing "combat support" operations (plane guard, log runs, etc...). Yeah, we flew over the beach into that craphole everyday and theoretically it was an imminent danger area, but the way some the pilots (VERY few) acted we were in the middle of the Tet offensive! I am most proud of the fact that I served and was able to fly as an aircrewman/rescue swimmer in the Navy. It was the best job I have ever had and will ever have.

 

[Kaman]

I'm probably a contributor to the problem in regard to NAMs. I figure if the CO has authority to give out as many NAMs as he wants, I'm going to write up the guys I want. I think I've written about 6 or 7 NAMs in the past year, and the CO has signed them all. I don't do this for every swinging dick, but I do it for the guys who work hard, and I don't care if they are just doing their job. Somehow 20% of the guys who are "just doing their job" end up doing 80% of the work. I give those guys a NAM.

The only thing that pisses me off about a bunch of NAMs being given out is when a group of Marines get the same damn write-up. I figure if you're going to give them an award, at least take the time to give each Marine their own citation write-up to be read individually.

Just read your post after I had put mine on the board. I was very surprised to read that! Doesn't even sound like the proper protocol for giving an individual award to a service member. I never saw anything like that in the Navy in junior my 20 years. I wold hope that these individuals were treated with more respect and courtesy by their NCOs and the junior officers that recommended them in the first place!

 

[phrogpilot73]

My highest award is the Air Medal. I have 2 Individual Action, and 6 Strike Flight. One of the IA's is a joke (the citation literally reads "he successfully piloted his aircraft") but our CO at the time was all about what medals he could get (and added all of us to the write up), and the 6 SF are simply based off flight hours. Not really super proud of any of them. One of the IA Air Medals I'm relatively proud of. 8 hours. 7.8 on goggles (flipping them up toward the end of the night). 1/2 - 1 mile vis all night. First Iraqi election a resounding success after having spent the entire night moving election workers and ballots all across the country. I was bone-numbing tired, but the next morning it was cool to listen to it on BBC on my shortwave radio...

Don't get me started on the JOKE that is my CAR. I slept through a firefight, and even though I told everyone that I shouldn't be on the list for the award, my name ended up on it - and I have to wear it...

 

[SteveG75]

Speaking of awards, I was just looking at my shadowbox and after 9 months realized that they put my NAM higher in precedence in the medal display than my NCM, LOL. Anyway, fixed now.

BTW, I did get a retirement MSM to go above my 3 Strike Flight Air Medals (Southern Watch) but my favorite award is the one I got from the Marines I was assigned to for my IA in Iraq. Could have gotten a BSM administratively via the Navy chain of command but when my Marine boss (O-6) told me to write up my stuff, I took that instead. Just a plain old NCM, but I got it from a command that knew and valued my work, not as a result of some award mill in Baghdad. I did get rid of almost all my blue Navy puffy folders but that red Marine one will stay with me forever.