POWs unacknowledged in China, Libya and Laos?

[Bevo16]

If you want a good example of a missing airman the US government has been interminably slow to even attempt to account for, look no further than Capt. Paul Lorence, an F-111F WSO from the 48th TFW who was shot down on April 14, 1986 off the coast of Libya.

America's attempts to account for Lorence have been pitiful at best, much to the disgust of his family.

Captain Lorence is accounted for. He was killed in action, and his remains have not been recovered. There is a difference. They thought that they were going to get the remains back at one point, and they turned out to be those of the pilot. The reality of what happened to Capt Lorence's remains is probably not a pretty picture. Sometimes, when aircraft loaded with fuel and explosives impact the ground, there just is not much left.

It is pretty hard to say that the US efforts in this loss incident have been pitiful when they got one of the crew members back.

 

[A4sForever]

I have to agree with Bevo on this. I find it very hard to believe .....

Yeah ... I suspected that; in actuality, I knew if you chimed in that would be your take on the question.

Both of you are coming at this question from the WRONG perspective. You require "proof" before you can/will move -- which points to your lack of experience w/ the Communist or Oriental mindset for frame of reference, your ultra conservative approach to the question, and your innate timidity in aggressively pursing the issue. Not a personal criticism, per se -- so don't get all hot & sweaty-- but rather consider it an opportunity for expanding your horizons.

Bevo -- thanks for your offer of "help", but my sources and personal contacts in the POW/MIA "search" go far, far above either your or Flash's pay grades. Granted ... the trail has grown cold for me w/ the passage of time and my own personal life has moved on -- for better or for worse. I have been out of the "direct" POW/MIA loop for more than a couple of years -- but at the time suffice it to say it conjoined w/ the "highest" levels of more than two government agencies that were intimately involved in the question as well as more than a few well heeled private concerns. BUPERS -- ??? --- I laugh: BUPERS was just one of the minor recipients of anything -- certainly not one of the players. BUPERS had ME classified as MIA for 4 years .... but I still got paid. Just no promotions.

You guys always want ironclad "proof" before you can act. What a joke, what colossal naivety, masked as requiring "evidence". That's like saying I require "proof" that O.J. is/was guilty. That's like saying I require "proof" that when I turn the switch on the wall, the light will come on. That's like saying I require "proof" that the sun will come up tomorrow .... it goes a long way toward showing a lack of experience w/ the Asian view of the world and the "in the box" mentality that is all too typical of many (most?) government employees. Again, this is not meant as a "personal" attack on either one of you -- if you want to take it as such, knock yourself out -- be my guest.

You need to only go back and read the original link in this thread for a simple form of "proof". The CHICOMS have DENIED that ANY American POW's were "in country" for the past 50 +/- years since the end of the "Forgotten War" ... and now ... when they "need" something -- perhaps a warm & fuzzy for the Olympics?? -- they are forthcoming w/ the patently obvious. You must be able to follow the tea leaves ...

Same for the North Vietnamese. They only spit out a few remains when it suits THEIR purposes.

I lost friends and classmates who were ultimately unaccounted for -- I will never "give up" nor "lose faith" in them nor demand "proof" which will never be forthcoming from any Communist enemy until there is a 100% accounting for each & every guy who had his name on a bracelet -- and for those who didn't.

P.S. ... O.J.'s not innocent.

P.P.S. ... time for Mai'Tai's.

 

[HH-60H]

I have some information on what happened to Speicher and where they think he is now. I know the guys that were on the ship with him and the one who saw him go down. If you get into that it's real interesting stuff. Screwed the pooch HARD on that one. From what I have been told they think there is a possibility that he is in Syria.(That's not confirmed though) If he's still alive.

You've really overstepped your bounds.

 

[Bevo16]

Both of you are coming at this question from the WRONG perspective. You require "proof" before you can/will move -- which points to your lack of experience w/ the Communist or Oriental mindset for frame of reference, your ultra conservative approach to the question, and your innate timidity in aggressively pursing the issue. Not a personal criticism, per se -- so don't get all hot & sweaty-- but rather consider it an opportunity for expanding your horizons.

Bevo -- thanks for your offer of "help", but my sources and personal contacts in the POW/MIA "search" go far, far above either your or Flash's pay grades. Granted ... the trail has grown cold for me w/ the passage of time and my own personal life has moved on -- for better or for worse. I have been out of the "direct" POW/MIA loop for more than a couple of years -- but at the time suffice it to say it conjoined w/ the "highest" levels of more than two government agencies that were intimately involved in the question as well as more than a few well heeled private concerns. BUPERS -- ??? --- I laugh: BUPERS was just one of the minor recipients of anything -- certainly not one of the players. BUPERS had ME classified as MIA for 4 years .... but I still got paid. Just no promotions.

A4's,

Don't lump me in with Flash on this. The way you keep up with things here, you know that common ground is not something that we share.

What you seem to think you know about me is pretty far from the mark. Nobody that I know of is sitting around waiting to move. They are pretty much on the ball. OBTW, "innate timidity" and the approach that I take to my job do not go together. Sorry brother, but your bombs are way off target here.

 

[Steve Davies]

Captain Lorence is accounted for. He was killed in action, and his remains have not been recovered. There is a difference. They thought that they were going to get the remains back at one point, and they turned out to be those of the pilot. The reality of what happened to Capt Lorence's remains is probably not a pretty picture. Sometimes, when aircraft loaded with fuel and explosives impact the ground, there just is not much left.

It is pretty hard to say that the US efforts in this loss incident have been pitiful when they got one of the crew members back.

Utter rubbish.

1) There is convincing evidence that Lorence and Ribas ejected - they did not 'hit the ground'

2) The F-111 uses a capsule system upon ejection. There is strong evidence to suggest that the ejection was succesful and that the capsule containing Ribas and Lorence landed in the sea

3) Libya has the flight helmets for both pilot and WSO, which sort of ruins your 'Lorence was blown to smithereens when he hit the ground' theory

4) He may well be KIA/BNR now, but America's attempts to locate him in the days, weeks, months, years and decades after his loss were feable and unconvincing

On what physical evidence has Lorence been classed as KIA? 'None', is the answer.

It's pretty convenient to say, 'Yeah, well Lorence is dead, so we don't need to find his remains', but that is not going to do his family any good. His family still does not accept that he is dead. So, tell me, have you failed them?

Finally, it took you more than three years to get Ribas's remains (the pilot) back. When Libya did finally return him, it happened not because of your efforts, but because of the *intervention of the Vatican* and the willingness of the Pope to mediate! Did the Pope do so because America skillfully negotiated with him? No, he did so solely because he learned that the pilot had been a devout Catholic.

That you think you deserve a pat on the back for this, or that it means that the US DoD somehow did a good job, is really quite a disgusting comment.

 

[Flash]

Yeah ... I suspected that.....Both of you are coming at this question from the WRONG perspective. You require "proof" before you can/will move -- which points to your lack of experience w/ the Communist or Oriental mindset for frame of reference, your ultra conservative approach to the question, and your innate timidity in aggressively pursing the issue......but rather consider it an opportunity for expanding your horizons.

I think you are coming at it from the wrong perspective, I take offense when someone questions the efforts and the work of my current colleagues, military and civilian, to find the remaining MIA's. You may not think I have the right mindset but there are people who are working this issue today that do, I will leave it to the experts.

You guys always want ironclad "proof" before you can act. What a joke, what colossal naivety, masked as requiring "evidence"......Again, this is not meant as a "personal" attack on either one of you -- if you want to take it as such, knock yourself out -- be my guest.

Since when did I say we need 'ironclad proof' before we take action? Quit putting words in my mouth. As for evidence, what I was referring to was anything showing POW's were kept after the end of the Vietnam War. As far as I know, there is nothing to show that. Get off your high horse, all current and former military members have a stake in this issue, and you are naive to think that my thought process is a certain way......

 

[Flash]

Utter rubbish.

The same could be said of your post.

P.S. And you are?

 

[Bevo16]

Utter rubbish.

1) There is convincing evidence that Lorence and Ribas ejected - they did not 'hit the ground'

2) The F-111 uses a capsule system upon ejection. There is strong evidence to suggest that the ejection was succesful and that the capsule containing Ribas and Lorence landed in the sea

3) Libya has the flight helmets for both pilot and WSO, which sort of ruins your 'Lorence was blown to smithereens when he hit the ground' theory

4) He may well be KIA/BNR now, but America's attempts to locate him in the days, weeks, months, years and decades after his loss were feable and unconvincing

On what physical evidence has Lorence been classed as KIA? 'None', is the answer.

It's pretty convenient to say, 'Yeah, well Lorence is dead, so we don't need to find his remains', but that is not going to do his family any good. His family still does not accept that he is dead. So, tell me, have you failed them?

Finally, it took you more than three years to get Ribas's remains (the pilot) back. When Libya did finally return him, it happened not because of your efforts, but because of the *intervention of the Vatican* and the willingness of the Pope to mediate! Did the Pope do so because America skillfully negotiated with him? No, he did so solely because he learned that the pilot had been a devout Catholic.

That you think you deserve a pat on the back for this, or that it means that the US DoD somehow did a good job, is really quite a disgusting comment.

1 & 2: A maybe + A maybe = ________

3. Helmets float, bodies don't. My "theory" was much more of a general hypothesis really, with the underlying point that there simply might not be anything to recover. So, you think he was not blown up, and he may have ended up on the bottom of the Med instead?

4. I honestly don't know enough about specific case to say one way or another on it. I am sure that by having such a strong opinion on the matter you have already done a FOIA request to JPAC, The State Department, and the CIA to get all of the unclassified information on it, right?

The classification as a KIA is called a "presumptive finding of death". It take a board of senior officers to make such a determination. They take all of the evidence that the person may still be alive, weigh it against evidence that he is dead, and make a call. The PFD does not mean that we stop looking for the man, it just means that the family collects SGLI etc.

Finally, you don't know dick about the negotiation process for remains returns. The State Department has been using third parties like the Vatican in this capacity for decades. If you think that all of that happened while the State department was on vacation, you are fooling yourself. Libya is all about saving face in and looking tough. When they gave up their nuke program a few years ago, they did not give everything over to the US, they gave it to a third party with a bullshit excuse.

 

[HackerF15E]

The same could be said of your post.

P.S. And you are?

Steve is a British aviation journalist who has written numerous books on US fighter aircraft. I've known him for going on 8 years and can vouch that he's a smart dude who is well informed on the subject. He's done a bunch of research on this subject specifically.

His interest, I'm sure, stems from the fact that Lorence and Ribas' jet was from RAF Lakenheath, which Steve has had a close connection with for nearly a decade. Lorence's wife is British, as is his son who is now of age to start pursuing a career in the USAF.

 

[Flash]

Steve is a British aviation journalist who has written numerous books on US fighter aircraft. I've known him for going on 8 years and can vouch that he's a smart dude who is well informed on the subject. He's done a bunch of research on this subject specifically.

I was being facetious, I looked at his bio and searched the internet. As far as I am concerned his comments disparaging the work of dedicated professionals who have worked this issue for years has no place here, I don't care who he is.

 

[Steve Davies]

1 & 2: A maybe + A maybe = ________

The autopsy on Ribas revealed that his only injuries were a broken ankle and a perforated eardrum. Cause of death was drowning.

If you think that those initial injuries are consistent with:

a) Having hit the sea at 540 knots, or
b) Having been ejected from the capsule at 540 knots after the aircraft hit the sea

Then you might want to reconsider that view.

To all of those who were involved in Operation El Dorado Canyon that I have talked with, there is a firm belief that Karma 52's crew ejected and that Ribas unstrapped and got out of the capsule.

I would be interested to hear what theories you have that contradict such a scenario.

3. Helmets float, bodies don't. My "theory" was much more of a general hypothesis really, with the underlying point that there simply might not be anything to recover. So, you think he was not blown up, and he may have ended up on the bottom of the Med instead?

I am not sure if that is a general theory of yours, or the official DoD line, but I can assure you that bodies do indeed float.

Again, the fact that Ribas drowned and then floated onto a Libyan beach a week or so later, is testimony to this.

My personal belief is that Lorence was incpacitated or killed when an SA-2 hit the right side of the jet. I think that there is every likelyhood that Ribas attempted to get his WSO out of the capsule before the thing sank.

Finally, you don't know dick about the negotiation process for remains returns. The State Department has been using third parties like the Vatican in this capacity for decades. If you think that all of that happened while the State department was on vacation, you are fooling yourself.

I did not say that the Vartican acted unilaterally; I said that they acted not because the US did such a convincing job of asking them to, but because Ribas had been a devout Catholic. There is a difference.

In this case, the US was so far removed from the actual process that it failed to correctly ID the body that was being returned. And this in spite of the fact that Ribas had been recovered with his wedding band and photo ID - two facts that the Libyans openly told anyone who would listen, and which was carried in a number of international newspapers in late April 1986. Ribas' wedding band was inscribed on the inside with the name of his wife. So, I am not particularly impressed, either, with that fact that the US managed to tell Lorence's family that their father/son/husband was coming home when it would have taken just a little digging to establish from the outset who it was.

Again, no slap on the back for you guys.

As for what I do and don't know about negotiations in this particular case, I think that there's a good chance that I know more than you at this stage.

I was being facetious, I looked at his bio and searched the internet. As far as I am concerned his comments disparaging the work of dedicated professionals who have worked this issue for years has no place here, I don't care who he is.

Ribas was my next door neighbour and something of a childhood hero.

But, who actually am I? Someone who doesn't think that the US did enough at the time to find either man. Someone who has witnessed first-hand the continued pain of the Lorence family, and the futility with which they have campaigned to get the US government to do more. Someone who wants to make sure that Lorence is not forgotten.

Sorry that you don't think a thread that debates whether the US does enough to recover its MIA is the place to mention Lorence, but I am firmly of the view that it is.

My comments were honest, not disparaging. But in any case, since this is a subject close to my heart, I don't really care what you think about me.

 

[Flash]

I will respectfully disagree with people like Catmando and A4s, who have unfortunately also experienced first hand knowing people who are MIA, and who have served in the United States military. But when you call into question the dedication of the men and women who work for the US government, in and out of uniform, who have devoted their their time and effort to heping resolve this issue, I don't care for it all.

You might know Capt Lorence's family, but you are not privy to all the efforts that the US government has put into resolving the issue of MIA's and those killed in action. You might know a lot about the issue, and write books about planes and take some pictures too, but it is nothing but arrogance for you to think that you know all of what the US has done to resolve Capt Lorence's fate.

My comments were honest, not disparaging.

Could have fooled me.

That you think you deserve a pat on the back for this, or that it means that the US DoD somehow did a good job, is really quite a disgusting comment.

Sorry that you don't think a thread that debates whether the US does enough to recover its MIA is the place to mention Lorence, but I am firmly of the view that it is.

I never said that, I only took exception to your rude comments.

But in any case, since this is a subject close to my heart, I don't really care what you think about me.

*shrug*

 

[Steve Davies]

I will respectfully disagree with people like Catmando and A4s, who have unfortunately also experienced first hand knowing people who are MIA, and who have served in the United States military. But when you call into question the dedication of the men and women who work for the US government, in and out of uniform, who have devoted their their time and effort to heping resolve this issue, I don't care for it all.

I don't believe for a minute that any of the professional soldiers, airmen and sailors tasked with this mission are apathetic in any way, shape or form. My comments are not aimed at individuals, but rather at those decision makers (often in political office) who can make a difference, but don't.

You might know Capt Lorence's family, but you are not privy to all the efforts that the US government has put into resolving the issue of MIA's and those killed in action. You might know a lot about the issue, and write books about planes and take some pictures too, but it is nothing but arrogance for you to think that you know all of what the US has done to resolve Capt Lorence's fate.

I don't pretend to know about everything - I have never said that I did.

However, I know *a lot* more about this than you think I do. I can tell you, for example, that I spoke to an Intel specialist who was responsible for SAR planning. They told me that there was no SAR plan for the crews who went down near the coast, or over the mainland. When I asked how a downed crew would escape, they told me: 'They wouldn't. They were on their own, and we weren't going to come and get them'. Well, what about a CIA safehouse? 'No, there was no safehouse. They were going to have to face the music'.

With this in mind, if you think that the Lorence family and people who support them should just keep quiet because they don't know *all* the facts, then you are mistaken.

Could have fooled me.

I never said that, I only took exception to your rude comments.

*shrug*

I reiterate that my comments were simply honest.

I have presented a range of information that strongly indicates that Lorence and Ribas did not get blown to bits when they hit the sea (the official line, apparently). And I have highlighted a case of ineptitude that caused the Lorence family an untold amount of anguish and pain... but if you're still more interested in talking about hurt feelings then go right ahead.

 

[Scoob]

As a relative outsider to all of this, I would just like to say that those of you involved in personnel recovery for a living, when confronted by someone who has a personal interest in the matter, should be taking a much more professional stance.

Remember, he is "the customer", this is a very emotional issue, and the internet is forever.

(I'm not questioning your motivation, as I can imagine myself in your billet, and I can't think of a job that I would want to succeed at more.)

 

[Bevo16]

The autopsy on Ribas revealed that his only injuries were a broken ankle and a perforated eardrum. Cause of death was drowning.

If you think that those initial injuries are consistent with:

a) Having hit the sea at 540 knots, or
b) Having been ejected from the capsule at 540 knots after the aircraft hit the sea

Then you might want to reconsider that view.

To all of those who were involved in Operation El Dorado Canyon that I have talked with, there is a firm belief that Karma 52's crew ejected and that Ribas unstrapped and got out of the capsule.

I would be interested to hear what theories you have that contradict such a scenario.

You seem to have you mind pretty much made up on the subject, and your habit of making shit up or posting speculation without factual basis and calling it "my theory" has gotten pretty annoying.

You are aware that I am in the Navy, and this is an Air Force case, right?

I am not sure if that is a general theory of yours, or the official DoD line, but I can assure you that bodies do indeed float.

It depends on a lot of variables, really. A body will only float initially if it has gear attached to it that is buoyant. Then, water temperature and depth play a big part. If the temp is to low, the bacteria in and on the body will die and the body will stay on the bottom. If it is warm enough, the bacteria grow and create gases in the body causing it to float.

My personal belief is that Lorence was incpacitated or killed when an SA-2 hit the right side of the jet. I think that there is every likelyhood that Ribas attempted to get his WSO out of the capsule before the thing sank.

I really don't have comment on your speculation rather than to point out that it makes my earlier point about people being so passionate about this issue that the emotion often trumps reason. The only evidence that you have talked about is the fact that there is one body with minor injuries (other than being dead). With that, you have formulated in your mind the exact chain of events that happened after they got to the water. Then, your own "theory" (it's fun calling them that) is that the pilot tried to free his WSO from the capsule, failed, and drown in the process. Then the dead WSO somehow managed to do what the pilot couldn't, and freed himself from the sinking capsule so that he could float to the surface.

I did not say that the Vartican acted unilaterally; I said that they acted not because the US did such a convincing job of asking them to, but because Ribas had been a devout Catholic. There is a difference.

So, what happened to the Vatican when they found out the "Devout Catholic" was still not found? If all it took was a little divine intervention from the pope to get one of the guys, why didn't he snap his fingers again and have them give us the other body back? That would be the one that the Vatican had an interest in.

In this case, the US was so far removed from the actual process that it failed to correctly ID the body that was being returned. And this in spite of the fact that Ribas had been recovered with his wedding band and photo ID - two facts that the Libyans openly told anyone who would listen, and which was carried in a number of international newspapers in late April 1986. Ribas' wedding band was inscribed on the inside with the name of his wife. So, I am not particularly impressed, either, with that fact that the US managed to tell Lorence's family that their father/son/husband was coming home when it would have taken just a little digging to establish from the outset who it was.

Again, no slap on the back for you guys.

I don't think that you know what "you guys" you are talking about here. None of the recovery efforts that you seem to have such an issue with would even fall under the folks that work POW/MIA issues. It would all be current operations folks. It would have taken years for the F-111 case to move from one department to the other.

As for what I do and don't know about negotiations in this particular case, I think that there's a good chance that I know more than you at this stage.

I have no doubt that you believe this to be the case.