Woman + Subs

[phrogdriver]

Yup. The Swedes, for one, have multiple hot females on their subs. I think it was the Gotland that was in Sandy Eggo when I was there for mid cruise. Good times.

Several countries do--Canada, for one. However, they all use diesels, and their patrols generally last weeks, not months. If they go longer than that, they will port along the way.

As far as dealing with attitudes and adversity in the military, everyone has his or her cross to bear. For every comment a female may overhear, somewhere else there's often a door being opened for you that you're not even aware is being held. I'm not saying that's a reflection on the individual in question, just that you don't always know when your good fortune is due to luck or someone else.

 

[ea6bflyr]

Twenty Five years ago when I joined the Navy, they mention putting women on Aircraft Carriers. Everyone, including me, Poo-Poo'd the idea.

Fifteen Years ago, Big Navy said make it so, to include women in Combat Roles, and it has been so ever since.

Does the opposite sex cause distractions in the workplace? HELL YES.

Is it impossible? Hell NO! Think about men and women on the Space Shuttle or the International Space Station....Very similar to being in a sub and it DOES work.

If and when the Navy says go, IT WILL HAPPEN.

-ea6bflyr

 

[SkywardET]

Twenty Five years ago when I joined the Navy, they mention putting women on Aircraft Carriers. Everyone, including me, Poo-Poo'd the idea.

Fifteen Years ago, Big Navy said make it so, to include women in Combat Roles, and it has been so ever since.

Does the opposite sex cause distractions in the workplace? HELL YES.

Is it impossible? Hell NO! Think about men and women on the Space Shuttle or the International Space Station....Very similar to being in a sub and it DOES work.

If and when the Navy says go, IT WILL HAPPEN.

-ea6bflyr

I think comparing the ISS or Space Shuttle missions to being on a sub is an apples to oranges thing. The number of female astronauts/cosmonauts is probably not even in the triple digits, whereas the number of female submariners will exceed that total in the first couple of years. The Law of Averages comes into play, I think.

To address Brett's query; I believe the sub community is significantly different from other communities, or at least the surface community. Everything I've heard about the sub community leads me to believe it is a "highest quality, highest importance, most efficiency possible" group, while most of the experiences I've had in the surface world give me the opposite impression.

Perhaps if my impressions are not true, then such a transition won't matter as much.

However, as it stands, just one unplanned, unknown pregnancy can potentially ruin the biggest advantage a sub has, whereas such a problem is usually not as large of an issue with surface ships because they don't enjoy such stealth and typically operate in groups, or can make port within the next month, etc. Such a logistical situation is made worse when you consider the "optimized manning" scheme, and the importance of scale on the smaller crews of subs.


I have no doubt, however, that it won't be a problem the majority of the time. I do, however, wonder if adding problems is worth it?

 

[Bevo16]

Every time a woman joins a command, she is judged for having a uterus and guilty until proven innocent. Women deal with a lot of crap, and even the ones who do their jobs extremely well are constantly under the microscope.

This is a really ignorant statement. I choose to say ignorant, because you really have no idea what you are talking about. If someone who actually had fleet experience had said it, I would say that they were stupid beyond belief and were probably trying to cover up for the fact that they are not very good as an officer or aviator.

In ever command that I have been a part of, women are not "guilty until proven innocent", in fact, the inverse is true. Ask any male who has graduated from the USNA in the past decade if "Academy Justice" is equal for male and female midshipmen. It's not. Women are given preferential treatment from admissions to the time they finish flight school, through their JO tours and beyond. It's a fact. An "average" female will always be given higher marks than her male counterparts, they will get extra chances to correct deficiencies, and always carry the ultimate "get out of jail free" card in that they can just blame their poor performance on a supervisor that "does not like women".

 

[jfulginiti]

This is a really ignorant statement. I choose to say ignorant, because you really have no idea what you are talking about. If someone who actually had fleet experience had said it, I would say that they were stupid beyond belief and were probably trying to cover up for the fact that they are not very good as an officer or aviator.

In ever command that I have been a part of, women are not "guilty until proven innocent", in fact, the inverse is true. Ask any male who has graduated from the USNA in the past decade if "Academy Justice" is equal for male and female midshipmen. It's not. Women are given preferential treatment from admissions to the time they finish flight school, through their JO tours and beyond. It's a fact. An "average" female will always be given higher marks than her male counterparts, they will get extra chances to correct deficiencies, and always carry the ultimate "get out of jail free" card in that they can just blame their poor performance on a supervisor that "does not like women".

Totally disagree. My wife was in for 9 years and I'm still amazed at some of the shit she had to deal with, particularly at her last command (VT-4). I think you and redmidgrl are at opposite ends of the spectrum..... no woman is automatically judged simply for being a woman but they don't automatically have an easier time either.

 

[Brett327]

Everything I've heard about the sub community leads me to believe it is a "highest quality, highest importance, most efficiency possible"

Everyone says that about their "group." For the kinds of things we're talking about, the sub community is functionally equivalent to all the others.

Brett

 

[ELT(SS)]

If they take the time to make this work, it will work. But the first time that a female nub doesn't have to hotrack while a guy that has been there for a year and a half is hotracking there will be an issue. The best way I can see it happening on a fast attack is to wait until we have at least 21 females and assign them to 21 man. There is a head right there with one shower and one stall and two sinks. That will leave the other 100 guys to split 2 showers, three stalls and a urinal, but it could work. I just don't want it to.

 

[ELT(SS)]

The only differences between submariners and the rest of the fleet are that: we watch each other go completely insane every couple weeks while underwater, then return to 'normal' when we get home, we know way too much about each other and use it to our advantage, our clothes smell like amine for the rest of our lives, and we are not too big on formality, unless NR is on the boat, then we are like little robots who sleep too little, smoke too much and drink too much coffee, but will give you a verbatim repeatback when asked for the salt.

After having spooned with a mark48 for a couple of months, waiting until the guy I relieve gets out of bed before I go to bed because the third guy smells funny and gets his own rack for about 6 months, and being in some very inappropriate positions with guys just trying to walk down the hallway,I will be very interested in how this plays out. With any luck it will be a little bit after April 17 2021.

 

[Clux4]

How would the risk of breast cancer be any more significant than all the other kinds of cancer? Besides which, men do get breast cancer...

Maybe they should train up a few hundred female submariners, and give them their own boats. It'd solve the space problem (and create only a few logistical nightmares).

That was suppose to be a joke! Get it?!

Actually a Battalion in the MLG(Marine Logistics Group) tried lumping all their females into a Company and a few weeks before they deployed, the Company Commander and the XO found out they were pregnant and could not deploy. They immediately switched everyone around and spread loaded the female force!

I am just being sarcastic about this whole thing as I watch people give their opinion on why it cannot be so. I have read every post on this thread and there is not ONE arguement that is compelling. I believe the Navy is not ready to integrate that segment of its force. When the Navy is ready, things will change. The same was said of women flying fighters.

 

[smittyrunr]

...
In ever command that I have been a part of, women are not "guilty until proven innocent", in fact, the inverse is true. Ask any male who has graduated from the USNA in the past decade if "Academy Justice" is equal for male and female midshipmen. It's not. Women are given preferential treatment from admissions to the time they finish flight school, through their JO tours and beyond. It's a fact. An "average" female will always be given higher marks than her male counterparts, they will get extra chances to correct deficiencies, and always carry the ultimate "get out of jail free" card in that they can just blame their poor performance on a supervisor that "does not like women".

I agree that there were some conduct cases at USNA where women were given lighter sentences. I agree women are sometimes given preferential treatment as far as admissions there.

It was nice to get to flight school- I felt that was the first place I was actually treated like a flight student, not a female flight student. When I DQ'd at the boat in Kingsville, I got exactly the same # of ET flights as the guy who also DQ'd in my class. He figured it out the second time, I did not. I got a transition to maritime, as did the other guys who attrited at the same time I did. Since returning to the VT world as an IP, both male and female students have attrited, both male and female students have been given 2nd and 3rd chances. It's not perfect, I'm sure the percentages probably trend slightly one way or another, but your average O-3 IP is not going to grade a female student differently than a male student. I don't buy that the grades turn out vastly different from males to females.

The fleet was a different story. From Sailors in the squadron to fellow JOs and up, almost universally I was treated differently. Not necessarily better or worse (though sometimes), but with few exceptions differently. I think overall, negatively.

 

[scoober78]

The only differences between submariners and the rest of the fleet are that: we watch each other go completely insane every couple weeks while underwater, then return to 'normal' when we get home, we know way too much about each other and use it to our advantage, our clothes smell like amine for the rest of our lives, and we are not too big on formality, unless NR is on the boat, then we are like little robots who sleep too little, smoke too much and drink too much coffee, but will give you a verbatim repeatback when asked for the salt.

After having spooned with a mark48 for a couple of months, waiting until the guy I relieve gets out of bed before I go to bed because the third guy smells funny and gets his own rack for about 6 months, and being in some very inappropriate positions with guys just trying to walk down the hallway,I will be very interested in how this plays out. With any luck it will be a little bit after April 17 2021.

This is a great little snapshot for those of you who haven't been underway on a submarine.

Don't get me wrong, having spent a few days shy of three years underway, integration wouldn't be something I would be looking forward to either, but its the right thing and its going to happen. Trying to fight it not only attempts to deny the fairness of it, but wastes time and energy that would be better spent finding the right way to do it.

 

[ea6bflyr]

I think comparing the ISS or Space Shuttle missions to being on a sub is an apples to oranges thing.

I was referring to the cramped & close living conditions as well as not being able to go outside to breathe fresh air. same-same.

-ea6bflyr

 

[SDNalgene]

On the plus side, hot racking under the new setup could be a morale improving evolution...

If they can do it and have it add value to mission accomplishment, groovy. However, the PITA that it would entail does not seem at all about adding to the readiness of the boat. Rather, it seems to be absolutely about being politically correct and fair. The military isn't a make work program and shouldn't be used by politicians as a means for social engineering. I don't think that women would cause a sub to be less effective, but I certainly don't think it would make subs more effective either. If all sailors are "equal" and there is not going to be any improvement in readiness, how about we just avoid making the lives of the sailors who have to live in those hellish tubes any more uncomfortable and awkward? The cramped living quarters on subs are far worse than on other Naval vessels and I do think it is a different situation with regard to having women on board far beyond the threshold of reasonable accommodation. Given that I am not a submariner this won't affect me so I really don't have a dog in the fight, but I don't like the fairness over readiness aspect of this. Eh, but no one asked me, so I guess I am just talking to the wind.

EDIT: I do think that when the accommodations required for gender integrated service are reasonable they should be made (as they have been). I have female relatives in the military whose service I admire; the only one in my family to actually get shot at happens to be a woman. I just don't think the accommodations required on a sub are reasonable or fair to the majority of the crew whose living conditions would get considerably more inconvenient.

 

[Swanee]

On the plus side, hot racking under the new setup could be a morale improving evolution...

If they can do it and have it add value to mission accomplishment, groovy. However, the PITA that it would entail does not seem at all about adding to the readiness of the boat. Rather, it seems to be absolutely about being politically correct and fair. The military isn't a make work program and shouldn't be used by politicians as a means for social engineering. I don't think that women would cause a sub to be less effective, but I certainly don't think it would make subs more effective either. If all sailors are "equal" and there is not going to be any improvement in readiness, how about we just avoid making the lives of the sailors who have to live in those hellish tubes any more uncomfortable and awkward? The cramped living quarters on subs are far worse than on other Naval vessels and I do think it is a different situation with regard to having women on board far beyond the threshold of reasonable accommodation. Given that I am not a submariner this won't affect me so I really don't have a dog in the fight, but I don't like the fairness over readiness aspect of this. Eh, but no one asked me, so I guess I am just talking to the wind. Commence flaming.

But it is... The military integrated long before the rest of society did. Women worked factory jobs to support the military before it was widely acceptable for women to work. The military is an avenue of social change. It provides the most unbiased look (as compared to the alternatives) at how things will work mainly because we value mission accomplishment above all else. It is a solid baseline that can be evaluated against. Pretty much nothing else in society gives you that.

 

[scoolbubba]

It provides the most unbiased look (as compared to the alternatives) at how things will work mainly because we value mission accomplishment above all else.

I agree with most of your statement, but what happens when mission accomplishment is no longer paramount? I'm with SD on this one, it might just be more asspain for an already uncomfortable job without an upside other than change, hope, puppies kumbaya and all that.