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Woman + Subs

BigRed389

Registered User
None
I heard from a buddy that women aren't allowed to serve onboard frigates for space considerations. If that is true, what makes a submarine a more suitable environment?
Your buddy got bad gouge. Every surface ship can have females as part of the crew.

All the other stuff, welcome to what the rest of the DOD has been dealing with for the last 20-ish years.
 

BackOrdered

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Your buddy got bad gouge. Every surface ship can have females as part of the crew.

All the other stuff, welcome to what the rest of the DOD has been dealing with for the last 20-ish years.
But I could have sworn enlisted women are not aboard FFGs for space considerations.
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
words, lots of words.
It really appears that you're grasping at straws - and its rather unbecoming. Many of the arguments you make, while some are sub specific, are very similar to arguments men made to keepthis woman from becoming what she became.

It's also a bit ridiculous for you to assume so many of these women will end up pregnant. Ridiculous, and arrogant to presume they'd be interested in dropping trou with you. Yes, you can cite numbers from initial female-inclusive carrier cruise, but we live in a different culture today. Will it happen at some point? Likely. Is it going to be the end of the world? No.

Your community will pass you by, as happened in the aviation (specifically Tac-Air) community.

Your use of Capt Graf as an example is a poor choice. Her leadership failings were hardly unique to her gender.


but what happens when we lose otherwise good leaders who couldn't resist mother nature?
Grow up and be the professionals you're paid to be, see my earlier comment about arrogance and assumptions.

or they perceive she is receiving better treatment for flirting with a superior?
You give your existing officers and leaders that little credit?

What about the hit to crew morale when some become jealous of a female's clique
So you're telling us cliques don't currently exist?
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
But I could have sworn enlisted women are not aboard FFGs for space considerations.
Yeah, that's more correct, but the "why" is still wrong.

The problem isn't "space" per se, it's whether or not they have berthings converted for female habitability. DDGs slated to serve out to 2025+ were getting this retrofit as late as 2009..obviously the Navy wasn't going to bother to retrofit a class of ship that's been neutered and halfway out the door.

And when people throw the "space" issue up, you really gotta ask...does a female crewmember get assigned more space than a male crewmember? Obviously no. Yes, temporarily, there will be inefficiencies while the assigned/designed ratio stabilizes out. But it's not about "space", it's whether or not it's designed into the ship and manned accordingly.
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
Isn't the regulation still in effect where a woman that is pregnant has to be within X hours of a facility for treatment of pregnancy issues? When I was on the Lincoln the pregnant females I dealt with were flown down to SD and we would pick them up there and then they were flown back up to Everett when we transited back.

Maybe it is up to the CO to determine what the abilities are to get to a medical facility?
 

JIMC5499

ex-Mech
I'm glad I'm out and don't have to deal with this. On the other hand I am working on a Sunday because three of our engineers are out on maternity leave. It isn't just the Navy.
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
I'm glad I'm out and don't have to deal with this. On the other hand I am working on a Sunday because three of our engineers are out on maternity leave. It isn't just the Navy.
If only we could a find a way to keep all those uppity women in the kitchen....

 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
LSO, it's obvious neither side is going to budge, but I want to clarify something:
Recovering LSO said:
It's also a bit ridiculous for you to assume so many of these women will end up pregnant. Ridiculous, and arrogant to presume they'd be interested in dropping trou with you. Yes, you can cite numbers from initial female-inclusive carrier cruise, but we live in a different culture today. Will it happen at some point? Likely. Is it going to be the end of the world? No.
I am not in the pregnancy crowd. The military loses more men to sports injuries, DUIs, assaults, and other risky behavior mostly undertaken by men than we will ever lose women to pregnancy. My attrition comment was about the empirical fact that much fewer women elect to continue a career in the military after their initial commitment than men. It has nothing to do with pregnancy rates.

Additionally, the top two sub CO firing reasons last year dealt with mishandling classified information and inappropriate relations with women. So when I'm talking about losing leaders to misconduct, I'm talking about men, too.

I recognize that other communities have dealt with this for some time, too. It just doesn't seem like anyone actually gathered objective data one way or another to support (or refute) the notion that women enhance warfighting effectiveness. It's all mental masturbation, as Brett would say, since policy is policy. But there are a lot of skeptics in the community and some data would allow the wardroom and goat locker to toe the line and make Sailors believers more easily than telling us to say women are smart, too, so women ought to serve on submarines.
 

CommodoreMid

Whateva! I do what I want!
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The obvious follow up questions to your attrition comments, are a) are women "attriting" because they can't handle the job and are kicked out or are they simply saying fuck this shit in greater numbers at the end of their commitments? and b) what are the loss rates among other minorities? If they're higher than your Mk1 Mod0 white male, should we stop recruiting them as well? In the case of subs, unlike special warfare, infantry, etc, there is no good argument why a women is incapable of doing the job. Yes, there are logistical challenges as we've discussed ad nauseum, but saying because a woman is more likely to leave at the end of her time, therefore we shouldn't recruit her into the community, is frankly a bullshit reason.
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
some data would allow the wardroom and goat locker to toe the line and make Sailors believers more easily than telling us to say women are smart, too, so women ought to serve on submarines.
Does your CO give a "why" with every order?

Additionally, the top two sub CO firing reasons last year dealt with mishandling classified information and inappropriate relations with women. So when I'm talking about losing leaders to misconduct, I'm talking about men, too.
I hope you're not referring to this. Because it has nothing to do with women serving on submarines.
 

LET73

Well-Known Member
I'm guessing women get out earlier because it's harder for women to maintain a normal family life than for men. How many civilian guys want to be Navy husbands? How many moms want to deploy while Dad stays home with the kids? Aviation has a long training pipeline, too, but I think at this point it's commonly accepted that women will be pilots.
 
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