Why does the Marine Corps have its own "Air Force"?

[A4sForever]

...For the record, the Marine Corps invented CAS during WWII. We're pretty good at it.

I'm gonna' see you and raise you one ... I think it's fair to say the USMC was the first dedicated CAS proponent even prior to WW2 -- they began taking the exercise from experiment into doctrine during the 'Banana Wars' of the '30s ... Haiti, Nicaragua, and the Dominican Republic. During WW2 the concept of CAS was more or less universally embraced by a bunch of players after the Luftwaffe/Blitzkreig proved it's worth on a grand scale', for starters.

But the Marines perfected it.

From the History of USMC Operations in WW2:

"... From the Marine Corps point of view, air support of ground troops by Marine pilots flying Marine aircraft never reached a satisfactory level during the Pacific War. In fact, many World War II Marine aviation commanders considered that their squadrons, groups, and wings were never employed to maximum capability with respect to their tactical functions from a time immediately after Guadalcanal until the Philippines and Okinawa campaigns. In late 1943 and the early months of 1944, tedium and boredom were the order for Marine pilots who, day after day, flew the so-called "Bougainvillea Milk Run," or bombed and re-bombed oft-attacked atolls and islets that were in the backwash of the war. It may have been good experience for young Marine aviators, but it wasn't the type of combat for which they had been trained.

... The situation improved with the assignment of Marine squadrons to the Philippines and Okinawa operations. Attached to MacArthur's forces, the Marines amassed an outstanding record of successful and fruitful close air support missions, and proselytized a number of Army commanders who had not previously been aware of the capabilities of this supporting arm. During Okinawa, close air support was flown for the most part by carrier-based Navy flyers, while Marine pilots of TAF flew combat air patrols and provided the air defense of the island. Although these TAF aviators did the most to blunt the Kamikaze threat and downed a creditable if not entirely confirmed number of enemy planes, they still did not fulfill what has come to be recognized as the primary mission of Marine aviation, close air support of Marine ground troops ... "

 

[A4sForever]

Here's a good little treatise on the state of USMC CAS just prior to the Philippine operations ... (< link) ... @ page 301, about 1/2 way down the web page ...again, from USMC Operations in WW2

*edit* ... we'll have to sic HeyJoe on this thread and break it off from its initial lame-o beginnings to a Marine/Navy/Army/whomever CAS thread worthy of reading/commenting upon.

I'm too old to do it.

 

[Flash]

Didn't the Brits kind of do this with their Harrier fleet, putting all the RN and RAF GR's under one joint wing?

Not sure why Brits consolidated their Harriers, but would this have motivated you even more?

The Brits consolidated their Harrier fleet, all GR7/9's (very similar to AV-8B's) now, into the Joint Force Harrier largely because their Harrier fleet was so small after they retired the Sea Harrier (very similar to AV-8A/C's) that it made more budgetary sense to the Brits. One result has been that the Harriers have rarely visited, much less deployed, on the Royal Navy's carriers since the retirement of the Sea Harrier.

So why didn't the Army end up with A-10's and F-16's?

Largely because history, starting with the 'Key West Agreement' and common sense were on the USAF's side. And ask almost any zoomie who was under his reign and they will usually have choice words about McPeak, the guy who came up with a worse uniform than NWU's, if you can believe that.

 

[Cron]

During Okinawa, close air support was flown for the most part by carrier-based Navy flyers, while Marine pilots of TAF flew combat air patrols and provided the air defense of the island.

Interesting; you'd think the roles would be the other way around. Anyone know what the reason for this was?

 

[eddie]

Hell, even the Joint Pub 3-09.3 gets into how you guys are organized and the planning considerations you have to take into account if planning for Army Rotary Wing CAS.

I'll say it again. You don't do CAS. I'm not saying you don't support troops on the ground, but there is a whole separate doctrine established for CAS - and while you can occasionally do it, you don't train to it.

For the unwashed, what are the ways in which the level and method of support by Army aircraft differ from true CAS?

For instance, I wonder: is it as simple as Army guys don't read a 9-line and go danger close anyways? Which I assume, no, it isn't, and I don't know what those words really mean; just being illustrative.

 

[phrogpilot73]

For the unwashed, what are the ways in which the level and method of support by Army aircraft differ from true CAS?

For instance, I wonder: is it as simple as Army guys don't read a 9-line and go danger close anyways? Which I assume, no, it isn't, and I don't know what those words really mean; just being illustrative.

The biggest thing is the requirement for a FAC/JTAC. In the Army, the pilot is responsible for ensuring clearance of fires. Close Air Support puts the onus on the requesting unit - hence the requirement for the FAC/JTAC. There's other things that differ, mainly how battlespace boundaries are set up.

 

[exhelodrvr]

Yeah? Well, the Army, Air Force, AND Marines are really crappy at ASW warfare warfare!!

 

[HueyCobra8151]

The biggest thing is the requirement for a FAC/JTAC. In the Army, the pilot is responsible for ensuring clearance of fires. Close Air Support puts the onus on the requesting unit - hence the requirement for the FAC/JTAC. There's other things that differ, mainly how battlespace boundaries are set up.

My understanding is that if I am in the poo and I (a non FAC/JTAC) get on the hook with a supporting aircraft and in layman's terms describe my location and the enemy location, that I can get CAS (although the pilot will own the ordnance, not me as I am not JTAC qualified), even without a formal 9 or 6 line.

Obviously the 9/6 line format is preferred.

To the guy who was randomly bad-mouthing the Air Force, check their budget dude, they are doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing. R&D and Procurement is their largest budget expenditure.

 

[slug]

As a FAC with an infantry battalion my order of preference for CAS would be: 1. Marine, 2. Navy, 3. Air Force, 4. if nothing else is available, Army.

I don't think you can have one perfect tool (Service or aircraft) for every job. If you need a building demolished, call AF, Navy or Marine FW with a 500 lb. bomb. But if you have troops in contact in an urban environment, insurgents with small arms and friendlies danger close, then I would call on Army AH-64s, OH-58Ds or Marine AH-1s with 2.75", .50 cal, 30 or 20 mm rounds.

I have heard multiple battalion commanders tell FW assets offering CAS to stand-by because attack helos were on-station and were the better platform for the fight. Inter-service rivalries set aside, those FW guys were about at frustrated as Peyton Manning riding the bench.

The bottom line for any CAS, Fires or CCA mission is that the pilot is told an accurate location and description of the enemy and location of friendlies. Any good RW Aviator will determine approach/exit direction, appropriate ordnance and method of engagement, or he will get the specifics he needs from the ground commander. For an immediate mission, the ground guys don't have the time or need to call an entire 9-line request. Although, yes, FACs/JTACs and FW assets requested through formal 9-lines are the best tool to blow something up or attack large, more conventional enemy forces.

Edit: HueyCobra, exactly.

 

[phrogpilot73]

I don't think you can have one perfect tool (Service or aircraft) for every job. If you need a building demolished, call AF, Navy or Marine FW with a 500 lb. bomb. But if you have troops in contact in an urban environment, insurgents with small arms and friendlies danger close, then I would call on Army AH-64s, OH-58Ds or Marine AH-1s with 2.75", .50 cal, 30 or 20 mm rounds.

I think you misunderstand my point. After having worked with FW and RW assets from the Marine Corps, FW assets from the Air Force and Navy, and RW assets from the Army, I know what I would prefer as a FAC. Marines (RW and FW) train towards CAS as their primary mission, because it is. You do have a point with matching target to ordnance, but if an AV-8B shows up with it's 25mm (and it will) I can still utilize them. I would push them in first before I pushed in a section of Army RW, because of their limited on-station time, the Rover III, etc... Same thing with a section of F/A-18's. I can downlink from the Litening pod and look at what their looking at. If either section shows up FAC(A) capable - even better. You'd be hard pressed to have an Army section show up FAC(A) capable. It's all about what we train to, and how it fits into our doctrine. I'm hesitant to work with the Army (and to some extent, certain elements of the Air Force) because I don't know exactly what level they're training to with regards to CAS. I've seen all sides of the spectrum, whereas I have seen pretty consistent work from Marines and Navy.

I have heard multiple battalion commanders tell FW assets offering CAS to stand-by because attack helos were on-station and were the better platform for the fight. Inter-service rivalries set aside, those FW guys were about at frustrated as Peyton Manning riding the bench.

That may be a big difference between the USMC and the Army. The BC will allows us (the FACs) to utilize what's on station how we need to. I've worked FW/RW assets simultaneously, and was very comfortable with it.

The bottom line for any CAS, Fires or CCA mission is that the pilot is told an accurate location and description of the enemy and location of friendlies. Any good RW Aviator will determine approach/exit direction, appropriate ordnance and method of engagement, or he will get the specifics he needs from the ground commander. For an immediate mission, the ground guys don't have the time or need to call an entire 9-line request. Although, yes, FACs/JTACs and FW assets requested through formal 9-lines are the best tool to blow something up or attack large, more conventional enemy forces.

I agree with you, although if I'm only doing a mark (no combined arms/supression), I can have attack assets on target within 5 minutes, and follow with an immediate re-attack. The 9-line is useful for more than just blowing something up or attacking larger, more conventional forces. Why? Our NATO allies use the 9-line, and it enables NATO assets to support us and for us to support NATO FACs. The 6 line with RW makes it an even faster, more flexible engagement and merely ensures that all required controls are in place.

 

[Pepe]

So, Marines do CAS but the Army doesn't? Um, since you were probably never in the Army, have you ever seen We Were Soldiers or Blackhawk Down?

Reference movies as factual and start a post off with "Douche." You're going to make a lot of friends around here...

 

[BrandonJ1780]

Pepe, we've established that he boned it. I only had the vaguest idea of what these guys were talking about (shore-type, non-aviation Sailor here), but it's an interesting read.

 

[HokiePilot]

My understanding is that if I am in the poo and I (a non FAC/JTAC) get on the hook with a supporting aircraft and in layman's terms describe my location and the enemy location, that I can get CAS (although the pilot will own the ordnance, not me as I am not JTAC qualified), even without a formal 9 or 6 line.

Yes, and as you could probably expect, there is even a name and verbology for it. It is called Call for Fire. It often just degrades into: I'm in the big building with the IR strobe the enemy is 300 meters north. Shoot them.

 

[HeyJoe]

*edit* ... we'll have to sic HeyJoe on this thread and break it off from its initial lame-o beginnings to a Marine/Navy/Army/whomever CAS thread worthy of reading/commenting upon.

I'm too old to do it.

Easy day, my Bruddah...found a few straggler threads on top of that so "Presto, Change-O!", it is so!

 

[slug]

Phrogpilot, good points, all. Admittedly, I only worked with Marine CAS in training: calling in AV-8Bs from OH-58Ds (and, yes, we used 9-lines). So I learned a lot from your perspective as a Marine FAC. As an old IP once told me, the ground guys only care who can get rounds/bombs on target. If you can, they love you, but if you can't, they tell you to get lost quick.