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Why does the Marine Corps have its own "Air Force"?
- Thread starter SoICanBeFree
- Start date
ROVER III??? That's so yesterday, but I guess that's when your B Billet transpired.
Gotta check out ROVER 4 and ROVER 5 (all self contained with no Pelican Case to cart around with cables everywhere) and multiple antennas. The next generation ROVER is not far behind either. Now you know what to put on your Christmas List for next year (and there's always your birthday).
ROVER 5 prototype getting put through paces between SLC and Dugway OCT 08
HJ Photo
Yes. The difference being that without JTAC control, the pilot "owns" the ordinance, so if something goes amiss it is on the pilot.
I believe that the JTAC's own the ordnance in Type I and II control when he clears the aircraft hot and I can't recall Type III, but I think it is on the pilot again, because Type III is basically telling him he is cleared to engage everything within specified boundaries.
My question was about CAS control, because Phrogpilot said that CAS requires a FAC/JTAC, and I am trying to figure out if I am missing some terminology or something. I've been told that basically any idiot can get on the hook and in plain english get CAS support if available. (Obviously this isn't the most efficient way to go about business)
Maybe its just my limited cognitive abilities, but I think this whole mess was easier to follow as 15 different threads, not one 250 post thread that harks back to 2005.
Must be as your arithmetic is lacking. Only 6 threads were merged and most were only a few pages. Older threads worthy of being included tend to be "lost" in archives so that newer viewers would never even be aware they even existed and most newbies do not use search feature. Think of it like the Borg. The threads have been assimilated and their richness adds to the collective "hive".
slug
Member
I don't understand the term "owning" ordnance; Phrogpilot maybe you can explain. From my experience, the ground commander owns the area of operations and through the FAC/JTAC gives clearance of fires. The key word there being "clearance". This issue came up in our TOC years ago. A pilot wanted to be cleared to fire, the battle captain in the TOC gave him "clearance", meaning no friendlies are in the area and you are clear to fire, but the pilot wanted the order to fire (basically having the TOC tell him to pull the trigger). However the TOC only had situational awareness through what the pilot was telling them about the target. They responded back with something to the effect of "only you can decide whether you need to shoot the target or not." Which makes sense to me because the pilot was the on-scene air mission commander with the best information and understanding of the target.
If a ground-pounder (non FAC) calls in his own location during a 9-line, is the pilot responsible for fratricide? This situation has happened before; I'm recalling a FAC early in Afghanistan. To me it doesn't matter who makes the call, trained FAC or not. If a ground commander requests fires on a location and the pilot confirms that location, the ground commander takes responsibility for the result of those weapons.
But if a pilot sees a target himself, not observed by anyone on the ground, gets "clearance" from the ground commander (cleared of friendlies) and fires on that target, the pilot is responsible for the death and destruction he creates.
Either way, once you pull the trigger, there's no calling those bullets back, and the pilots will live with the results of their actions whether someone on the ground requested it or not.
The 9-line is just a format; if the guy calling it in isn't a JTAC (or there isn't one on a relay involved in the conversation), then it doesn't matter. He can't say "cleared hot" and have it mean anything, regardless of the ground situation.
Ultimately the moral responsibility for release of ordnance rests with the guy who has the pink thumb that pushes the red button. He always needs to quality check whatever words he's getting from the ground against what he's seeing with his own eyes.
The legal responsibility -- ergo, who will be found guilty and who will be cleared of wrongdoing -- depends on many different aspects of the local ROE. It is possible for a pilot to do all the 'right' things in terms of the ROE, have a frat, and emerge on the other side 'cleared' so far as the military is concerned.
Part of it is that it's not always a "ground commander" that telling someone to go kill something. In that case, it's not necessarily CAS.
<--NOT a JTAC/FAC, but...
If you don't have the FAC/FAC(A) qual, you can still direct people to the fight, it's just up to the trigger puller to make sure he's got the right target. That's where the trigger puller "owns" his ordnance as opposed to the controller. That's what HueyCobra was alluding to.
In my rickety old helo, I can call on RW or FW to come in and blow something up, but all I'm really doing is telling him or showing him (via laser) where the bad guys is, albeit in (hopefully) a clear concise 6/9 line or talk-on. When doing so, I never "clear someone hot," just tell him to continue. There used to be the blurb about "You maintain terminal control of your weapons..." but apparently that's been removed.
EDIT: Hacker beat me to it.
<--NOT a JTAC/FAC, but...
If you don't have the FAC/FAC(A) qual, you can still direct people to the fight, it's just up to the trigger puller to make sure he's got the right target. That's where the trigger puller "owns" his ordnance as opposed to the controller. That's what HueyCobra was alluding to.
In my rickety old helo, I can call on RW or FW to come in and blow something up, but all I'm really doing is telling him or showing him (via laser) where the bad guys is, albeit in (hopefully) a clear concise 6/9 line or talk-on. When doing so, I never "clear someone hot," just tell him to continue. There used to be the blurb about "You maintain terminal control of your weapons..." but apparently that's been removed.
EDIT: Hacker beat me to it.
Why's it always about color with you guys? Bigot.:icon_tong
True stuff though. I'm pretty familiar with a couple of ugly cases and when it comes right down to it, the person - of whatever ethnic background:icon_wink - carrying the weapons has a tremendous responsibility to ensure they do good rather than ill.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
If you're in a shit sandwich, by all means call an aircraft up and ask for support. There's a blurb in the J-Fire about it, and it says something to the effect that aircrew will have to be more proactive about drawing out information, etc... Is it still CAS? Depends. What controls are in place, where are the battlespace boundaries, is coordination being done between other firing agencies? When an attacking aircraft is talking to a FAC/JTAC he knows that all of the above are being taken care of for him/communicated to him. He'll be told his attack heading, other aircraft, threats to the aircraft, any other firing agencies, that the FAC is coordinating with other firing agencies, etc. When he's talking to Joe Schmo, he may not know about those things enough to tell the pilot what he knows and what he doesn't.
"Owning the bomb" is one of my pet peeves. Who gives a shit about the legality. I want to make sure that I've sent a correct 9-Line up to the aircraft. Why? That's my life and the life of my Marines on line. The attacking aircraft wants to make sure they're releasing the ordnance in the right place. Why? Those are his fellow countrymen. If I never hear the term "own the bomb" again, it'll be too soon.
That Rover 5 looks nice, but since it's only been about 3 1/2 years since I left my B-Billet, and I know how cheap the Marine Corps is - I figure they're probably still using the Rover III... After all, I deployed in 2006 with a MULE!
"Owning the bomb" is one of my pet peeves. Who gives a shit about the legality. I want to make sure that I've sent a correct 9-Line up to the aircraft. Why? That's my life and the life of my Marines on line. The attacking aircraft wants to make sure they're releasing the ordnance in the right place. Why? Those are his fellow countrymen. If I never hear the term "own the bomb" again, it'll be too soon.
That Rover 5 looks nice, but since it's only been about 3 1/2 years since I left my B-Billet, and I know how cheap the Marine Corps is - I figure they're probably still using the Rover III... After all, I deployed in 2006 with a MULE!
I just got "my" ROVER 4s in 2008 and frequently "loan" them to visiting units with no ROVER capability or ROVER 3 with no encryption capability so that's no surprise. I was using ROVER 3s until then. The new "SIR" or (we call it Pocket ROVER) literally fits in a magazine pouch, which is nice but it's only a prototype (I have a picture on my other laptop). Like prices of calculators in 70s, and computers in the 80s and laptops in the 90s, the price is falling through the floor so more folks will be able to purchase them (ROVER 4 was $60K over a year ago unless you got onto Big Safari buy), but prices for newer units should be a fraction of that (way less than half).
A mule is just what you need to pack a Fires kit!
And Marines are preserving the almost lost art of Mule packing!
Triumph57
Member
Stupid Question: If Marine Aviators spend most of their training time focusing on CAS, and Navy Aviators also train for CAS, but not as much, what other missions do Navy Aviators spend more time training for? Air to air? Air to ground not in the area of friendly ground troops? Antisubmarine? I know Marine helicopters focus on CAS and transportation while the Navy focuses on SAR, transportation and ASW but what about jets? Also, what about Marine platforms that aren't well suited to CAS? I have heard one of the largest criticisms of the V-22 is that it lacks sufficient weapons (according to some).
Its an assault platform, it has no buisness doing that mission. Having a couple of door gunners while a helo stays on station is not dedicated air support. We learned that in Somalia.
Something that had already been learned the hard way in Vietnam. Funny how that cycle keeps repeating.
Whats that A4's is always saying... The more things change?
Seriously if I had a quarter for every time somebody in uniform had to unfuck something that had been proven a dumb idea in the past Id be a rich man.