Why does the Marine Corps have its own "Air Force"?

[Gatordev]

"Owning the bomb" is one of my pet peeves. Who gives a shit about the legality. I want to make sure that I've sent a correct 9-Line up to the aircraft. Why? That's my life and the life of my Marines on line. The attacking aircraft wants to make sure they're releasing the ordnance in the right place. Why? Those are his fellow countrymen. If I never hear the term "own the bomb" again, it'll be too soon.

I think it's a matter of perspective. You were (or are...is there currency?) a FAC, so you know that people expect you to be giving the specific info. Someone like myself who isn't a FAC and knows I don't have the training or accuracy (or the gear, for that matter) to give that specfic information, wants to make sure the attacker knows he's the final check. Should he be doing that anyway? Of course, but I think you get what I mean.

 

[PropAddict]

ROVER 4s. . .ROVER capability. . .ROVER 3. . .ROVER 5

That's all I go out of that. So I looked it up. Sounds like a cool piece of gear. I *think* we have a similar capability, but not nearly as slick on the Warpig. Which is why this caught my eye:

ROVER III capability was added to the F-14D Tomcat during its last deployment. It was first used by VF-31 and VF-213 on their last cruise with the F-14 Tomcat in 2005 and 2006. Within days of the modification teams arrival on the USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN-71) all F-14 Tomcats had complete ROVER capability. Before ROVER, ground controllers had to rely on "visual talk-ons" to hunt enemy ground forces and would use a map to guide pilots where they needed to go. A joint VF-31/VF-213 investigation revealed that it would be possible to modify the F-14D Super Tomcat with off-the-shelf technology for only $800 dollars per aircraft.
A team of F-14D experts from the Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) F-14 Program Office (PMA-241) staff at Naval Air Station Patuxent River was presented with this idea in early November 2005 and were able to research, develop and field this technology within a six-week window. Northrop Grumman employees from Naval Air Station Oceana and members of the fleet support team from Naval Air Systems Command Depot at Naval Air Station Jacksonville performed the aircraft modification.

That's just amazing to me, in this day of billion dollar overruns and multi-year program delays. . .

 

[scoolbubba]

The story of the "rebirth" of the Tomcat as an Air to Ground machine (which significantly lengthened it's life) is a pretty awesome example of a bunch of fairly junior guys cutting thru the bullshit to get the sensors on the plane and do the mission. I believe HeyJoe put the story up in a thread a while back...I'll dig around and see if I can find it.

 

[exhelodrvr]

Whats that A4's is always saying... The more things change?

Seriously if I had a quarter for every time somebody in uniform had to unfuck something that had been proven a dumb idea in the past Id be a rich man.

Practical solutions are important in wars; in between wars they are not what get people promoted, because they don't carry much weight with bureaucrats, who are more concerned with process and protecting their territory. So they get "forgotten" in between wars, when the bureaucrats increase their hold. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Pepe]

Practical solutions are important in wars; in between wars they are not what get people promoted, because they don't carry much weight with bureaucrats, who are more concerned with process and protecting their territory. So they get "forgotten" in between wars, when the bureaucrats increase their hold. Rinse and repeat.

Where does the bureaucracy come from? Politicians or from within our own ranks?

 

[Harrier Dude]

Please.....for the love of God........stop saying "owns the ordnance" or any other pouge sea lawyer horseshit that means the same thing.

The pilot makes the decision to drop. Period.

One if the many factors, perhaps the most important ( but not necessarily so ) factor is the cleared hot. Those words alone will not make ordnance come off the racks. Scream it all day, and if I'm not convinced that my bombs will do more good than harm for the guys in the ground, I won't drop.

In a TIC, I am more likely to drop on the "85% certainty" than otherwise, but it will always be my final call. Always.

I am personally and morally responsible for everything that comes off my jet. The legal crap doesn't matter as much in the long run. Jail is temporary. The knowledge that I killed a brother is forever.

 

[A4sForever]

Please.....for the love of God........stop saying "owns the ordnance" .....The pilot makes the decision to drop. Period......

Fuckin' A, Aggie Bruddah !!!

One not-so-fine-night many moons ago bombing through an undercast w/flares ... at the moment of 'truth' ... I was 'called off' w/ an "ABORT, ABORT" call from the C.O. at the last possible second ... but he was wa-a-a-a-ay outside the 'circle', in the 'dark', and didn't know what he was talkin' about ... I called "BOMBS AWAY" (for the record, to cover my '6') almost simultaneously ... and dropped ... and got 'GOOD' hits ... and I did NOT get placed in 'hack' nor was I grounded ... even though this particular Skipper hated my guts. Hell, he even hated my 1st wife .... probably 'cause she was so much 'like him'.

He was also a failed LSO, I was a good (make that a very, very 'good') LSO ... (why mention that -- 'cause that's just one of the 'burrs' he had under his saddle re:me) ... and he consistently 'lost' to me in the landing grades and the bomba' scores.

The PILOT w/ the PICKLE is the ultimate arbiter of what's 'right' and what's 'not' ... be prepared to take the heat or the congrats ... know your limitations, know your shit.

Do the right thing.

 

[Birdog8585]

Speakin of Harriers, A-10s and CAS - some news from the DEW...

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2010/01/us-navy-wants-rockets-for-hogs.html


Resurrect the SPAD. Period. :icon_smil

 

[Brett327]

Fuckin' A, Aggie Bruddah !!!

One not-so-fine-night many moons ago bombing through an undercast w/flares ... at the moment of 'truth' ... I was 'called off' w/ an "ABORT, ABORT" call from the C.O. at the last possible second ... but he was wa-a-a-a-ay outside the 'circle', in the 'dark', and didn't know what he was talkin' about ... I called "BOMBS AWAY" (for the record, to cover my '6') almost simultaneously ... and dropped ... and got 'GOOD' hits ... and I did NOT get placed in 'hack' nor was I grounded ... even though this particular Skipper hated my guts. Hell, he even hated my 1st wife .... probably 'cause she was so much 'like him'.

He was also a failed LSO, I was a good (make that a very, very 'good') LSO ... (why mention that -- 'cause that's just one of the 'burrs' he had under his saddle re:me) ... and he consistently 'lost' to me in the landing grades and the bomba' scores.

The PILOT w/ the PICKLE is the ultimate arbiter of what's 'right' and what's 'not' ... be prepared to take the heat or the congrats ... know your limitations, know your shit.

Do the right thing.

+1

The only guy that "owns" the ordnance is the guy w/ the pickle switch. Everyone else is just pretending.

Brett

 

[HueyCobra8151]

Thanks for the rudder steer. The term owning the ordnance WRT different types of JTAC control is what I had been taught from a grunt JTAC.

 

[exhelodrvr]

Everyone else is just pretending.
Brett

ANd taking credit when it goes well.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Thanks for the rudder steer. The term owning the ordnance WRT different types of JTAC control is what I had been taught from a grunt JTAC.

Based solely on his quote, I'd have to say he's an idiot. The only people I've ever heard say that are air force pilots. Not the good ones (like Hacker), either. More like flying lawyers.

Controlling and executing CAS is a conversation. It starts at check-in and doesn't stop until the bad guys are dead. There is no one particular point at which one guy owns the subject, SA, or authority except to say that the pilot is the only one who can physically make bombs come off the rack. He has final say via the laws of physics.

There are lots of lawyer-minded people who want to deliniate a clean line of blame along the pilot/controller lines to cover their ass and make a fairly complicated subject easy enough that they only have to do it once or twice a year to feel proficient at it.

They're not all in the air force, either.

 

[HackerF15E]

Based solely on his quote, I'd have to say he's an idiot. The only people I've ever heard say that are air force pilots. Not the good ones (like Hacker), either. More like flying lawyers.

Controlling and executing CAS is a conversation. It starts at check-in and doesn't stop until the bad guys are dead. There is no one particular point at which one guy owns the subject, SA, or authority except to say that the pilot is the only one who can physically make bombs come off the rack. He has final say via the laws of physics.

There are lots of lawyer-minded people who want to deliniate a clean line of blame along the pilot/controller lines to cover their ass and make a fairly complicated subject easy enough that they only have to do it once or twice a year to feel proficient at it.

They're not all in the air force, either.

I will tell you that the blue service is FULL of flying lawyers because we're taught to be that way. Not saying it is right, but it is definitely an institutionalized portion of USAF flying to make decisions based completely and 100% on written rule. It is a gross bastardization of the "flight discipline" philosophy (you know...know what the rules are and fly in accordance with them) that has mutated and taken on it's own life in Big Blue. The AF philosophy on ALL levels is "check six"; make your decisions as if your boss was right there in the cockpit with you, assume that the General is going to watch your tape, etc. It drives people to make decisions almost exclusively on the "will this get me in trouble" factor. It is an enormous cancer on the USAF, and there is no sign that it is ever going away. Obviously, it is a less than effective way to run a fighting force if you want to win a war. Unfortunately, it is perfectly matched to American society these days (but that's another story).

The "spin up" prior to my last OEF deployment was just as much about knowing the ROE inside and out as much as it was about tactical prowess. I'm all for knowing and following the ROE, but the problem was that it was a blind faith. We were taught to know and abide with an almost religious fervor. It was very frustrating to see young O-3s and O-2s on their first operational tour (and going on their first combat deployment) only concerned with the law, and not concerned at all with understanding the big picture. We had endless tabletop discussions as a squadron about different ROE scenarios, etc, and I was disappointed to hear the thought processes of some of these pilots that were ONLY concerned with making sure they stayed within the lines. When discussing fratricide, ultimately they kept coming back to saying "but the ROE says I can drop!", as if knowing they were 'legal' would make them able to live with themselves after killing a friendly.

I wish I could tell some of the stories that I've observed and heard about happening in the AOR. It's shameful.

 

[HeyJoe]

I will tell you that the blue service is FULL of flying lawyers because we're taught to be that way. Not saying it is right, but it is definitely an institutionalized portion of USAF flying to make decisions based completely and 100% on written rule. It is a gross bastardization of the "flight discipline" philosophy (you know...know what the rules are and fly in accordance with them) that has mutated and taken on it's own life in Big Blue. The AF philosophy on ALL levels is "check six"; make your decisions as if your boss was right there in the cockpit with you, assume that the General is going to watch your tape, etc. It drives people to make decisions almost exclusively on the "will this get me in trouble" factor. It is an enormous cancer on the USAF, and there is no sign that it is ever going away. Obviously, it is a less than effective way to run a fighting force if you want to win a war. Unfortunately, it is perfectly matched to American society these days (but that's another story).

Great characterization of the "business" mindset of the Air Force. It's been heading that way for sometime form the legacy SAC Zero Defects mentality that reached its zenith in the 60s before Vietnam was main focus of the services. Politically-driven ROE wa sin full effec tthen with all sorts of restricted areas and off-limit targets. Doesn't mean Air Force didn't have real warriors, but the Zero Defect mentality produced some lack luster commanders more concerned with statistics and staying in the lanes than leading and fighting. Enter Robin Olds who turned the 8th Fighter Wing around and taught the North Vietnamese a few lessons in dirty tricks. Meanwhile, Jack Broughton was leading the Thud pilots from the front and got embroiled in an ROE related dust-up (his book, Thud Ridge is a must read). Alas, peacetime tends to breed more of the CYA or Check Six mentality as Hacker describes so back it creeped.

I remember being exposed to it first hand upon arrival at Bergstrom as we deplaned and walked to Ops. Next thing we know we have an O-6 standing in front of us with big handset in hand saying he is the SOF and lecturing us about the "Red Line". We're all looking at him wondering what a SOF is and looking aorund saying "What Red Line?" He was about to explode when he realized due to light conditions, you couldn't see any markings on the concrete. He then calmed down after he realized we were Navy and had no clue who is was or what he was talking about. He walked us over so we could see a red stripe painted on the concrete and said he's get us a liaison to explain the rules of which the Red Line was but one. Our liaison turned out to be a JO RF-4 pilot and one really cool dude whose dad flew P-47s in WWII. We stayed for better part of a week for an exercise/competition and boy, did we honor the redline (while shaking our heads). Later, they posted security police to preserve the integrity of the redline as the Aussies arrived and fell into same trap.

 

[Harrier Dude]

........ SOF and lecturing us about the "Red Line". .....

You mean this guys office?