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Why does the Marine Corps have its own "Air Force"?
- Thread starter SoICanBeFree
- Start date
Cron
Yankee Uniform Tango
Only 5 days into 2010, and already I have my quote of the year.
Stop calling it CAS support. CAS means:
C lose
A ir
S upport
adding another "support" to the acronym is redundant.
Air Force, Navy, Marines and Coast Guard all fly C-130s and H-60 variants so asking why we need two services flying same aircraft is short-sighted. In fact, in case of F/A-18 DoD tried to get a common lightweight fighter for all the services, but Air Force opted for YF-16 and Navy/Marines went for an upgraded YF-17 that became the Hornet. Prior to that, Navy bought the F-4 Phantom and Marines adopted it followed by USAF being told to use it by OSD. JSF is similarly producing F-35 variants for three services. DoD prefers common equipment to avoid redundant non recurring costs for development.
Not quite true, when General McPeak was Chief of Staff of the Air Force in post Desert Strom era, he called for examination of service Roles and Missions. Right off the bat, he offered to give the Army the entire A-10 "fleet" and the CAS mission*.
*Note: See mention in this article (3rd column)
Now that would've made my switch to the Army worth it!
Didn't the Brits kind of do this with their Harrier fleet, putting all the RN and RAF GR's under one joint wing?
Not sure why Brits consolidated their Harriers, but would this have motivated you even more? McPeak tried to entice Army to own their battlespace entirely and in addition to shifting the A-10 community to the Army also offered some F-16s and had them painted especially for the CAS mission.
So why didn't the Army end up with A-10's and F-16's?
That paintjob looks pretty awesome by the way
That paintjob looks pretty awesome by the way
Oh goody, let's qoute movies.
We Were Soldiers = Air Force and Navy air support (remember when they called for Broken Arrow). A-1 Skyraiders, F-111's, and F-4's to name a few which were all Air Force and Navy Aircraft.
Black Hawk Down = Not sure what you're referring to here, but the only thing I remember were minimal gun runs and what not with the helos.
Phrogdriver may not have been in the Army, but I'm pretty dang sure he's a Marine Officer and Naval Aviator so I wouldn't go around being a smartass to him.
And then we can split the cargo mission between the navy marines and army since they make the heaviest use out of the AF's Cargo fleet anyways. Then we can split the Electronic warfare between the Navy and Marine corps, since they ride in our Prowlers anyways. Then Attack/Strike to the Navy/Marine Corps, considering that Air Force capabilities are rarely if ever the first responders to a new theatre of war (too bad they couldn't move their air bases around quickly and effectively, maybe if they could float?...) Then of course they could loan out their bombers to the Marines and Army so that they could provide their own support to their troops on the ground. Then, the air force could really focus on...refuelling everyone elses birds.
*disclaimer: NOT an aviator, just another average joe who really doesn't see the justification for the Air Forces budget given how redundant they are.
The USAF may not always be the first responders, but look who's doing the bulk of the air ops in OIF and OEF. There's more to war than who shows up first. Campaigns are won by maintaining a sustainable presence in large numbers. The USAF is good at that.
Brett
slug
Member
Douche, those movie references were in response to Phrogdriver saying that Soldiers don't know what CAS is. My point being Soldiers request CAS often and do it well. Whether it is CAS from the AF or Fires from Army Aviation is not the point.
As for being a smartass, I am sure that Phrog is a Marine Officer, Aviator and a Gentleman, but as a former Army Attack Aviation Officer who was called-in by Soldiers on the ground in Iraq, I take offense when someone says that the Army doesn't know CAS.
I have a feeling that slug's avatar is more appropriate than he planned
Throttle back, Jack (that's a Navy term -- even heard it once or twice on the 'line') ... or someone's gonna' get benched for a bit ...
Sit down, take a pill, and relax. I trust that I'm making myself clear ... ???
Sit down, take a pill, and relax. I trust that I'm making myself clear ... ???
You missed the boat completely then...Phrogdriver was referring to Army Aviation and it's concentration on CAS as a purpose for existence. The Marine Corps simply takes pride in it's aviation's ability to provide CAS. Nobody ever said that "soldiers don't know what CAS is". So take a chill pill and a deep breath and untwist your panties.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
You're right, I was never in the Army. Thank god. But to answer your question:
We Were Soldiers & Black Hawk Down - didn't see a single 9-line or 6-line being read. Nor did I hear "cleared hot" or any of the other myriad of requirements put forth in the Joint Pub 3-09.3 which defines CAS, a pub which the Army is only JUST starting to read.
The Navy does provide CAS with their F/A-18s. My original post said that. However, I said that the difference was focus of training... Marines are better at it. As a FAC with an infantry battalion my order of preference for CAS would be: 1. Marine, 2. Navy, 3. Air Force, 4. if nothing else is available, Army.
I'm pretty sure ( and again, I wasn't in the Army - but after discussing it for a very long time with the Aviation Master Gunner of an Apache unit I think I have an idea what you guys do) that you don't REALLY know what CAS is, and you're proving it now. If I remember correctly, the Army refers to it as "Close Combat Attack" and doesn't require a FAC/JTAC to control the attacking aircraft (Apache). An Air Force JTAC is embedded with you guys to control CAS from Navy/Air Force/Marines. Hell, even the Joint Pub 3-09.3 gets into how you guys are organized and the planning considerations you have to take into account if planning for Army Rotary Wing CAS.
I'll say it again. You don't do CAS. I'm not saying you don't support troops on the ground, but there is a whole separate doctrine established for CAS - and while you can occasionally do it, you don't train to it.
For the record, the Marine Corps invented CAS during WWII. We're pretty good at it.