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USAF Enlisted Pilots, The Right Stuff, Stolen Bikes, AIC, and SWO pipe dreams.
- Thread starter Farva01
- Start date
Ok, maybe I can break the ice a bit. I have chatted with AZ, on SIPR, about various topics. He isn't dumb or misinformed (though I'd suggest that his claim that the rhino is outclassed by some bobo Flanker is questionable). I'm pretty sure the reason he is here, is that he actually cares about knowing about what we do, unlike most of his compatriots. He said some things that are silly, but he is also one of the SWO's that honestly gives a shit. I wish we had a few more of them.
Now onto more important items, a ship collision at a Vc of 5 knots that was entirely forecast to be just such a collision 5 minutes prior, is an entirely different thing than a fixed wing midair, which begun, occurred, and ended, in the span of 10 seconds. I've had close calls, and the only common fact is that I didn't even realize it until it was over and I wasn't going to die.
Now onto more important items, a ship collision at a Vc of 5 knots that was entirely forecast to be just such a collision 5 minutes prior, is an entirely different thing than a fixed wing midair, which begun, occurred, and ended, in the span of 10 seconds. I've had close calls, and the only common fact is that I didn't even realize it until it was over and I wasn't going to die.
You don't get to make this statement and keep your credibility:
You heard it here fighter folks. If you are sent up against any PLAN fighter you might as well punch out. We are fucked. And I thought I had been paying attention.
1. I shouldn't have to explain this, but you are talking about a difference between airplanes and ships. If an airplane loses it's engine, it loses lift, and if it doesn't have enough lift, it crashes. We also fight so hard we blackout. There is nothing like that in SWOville. When a ship has an engine causality, it just floats on the water. I wonder how many ships we would have left if every time we lost an engine that ship sank. How's your LCS program doing by the way?
2. So you are saying our SWOs are better at the high end fight? That must be why Naval Aviation copied the surface community's schoolhouse construct then. That makes sense.
3. I hope I have a seat at this high-end fight table. But while I'm there, I'd like to invite our helo guys to the table. You know, the ones that help find these surface / sub-surface contacts for you tactical guys to engage, sitting in your cushy chairs. And since we are talking high end, I will probably want some 60S guys there to talk about how they are going to pick me up out of the drink after those "outsticking" Flankers put me into my silk. And the MPRA guys out there alone and unafraid, really painting your surface picture. I'm not going to invite the C-2 guys though, even though they do tactical stuff, because they are too busy enjoying their per diem, hotels, good food, and booze, so I know they don't even want a seat.
Yes, you have a whole watch team that allows you to crash into ships moving at 10-20 knots. You don't get to claim those crashes on your own. It takes a whole team.
And I don't need to talk to my AI on threat specifics. My job is to know my enemy, and sure as shit don't wait for an AI to tell me about it.
Next time I'm sent on a DCA / OCA / CAS / Maritime strike mission / SSC ..... I will tell them to fuck off. Our only mission is the strike package.
The boat I fly off of is driven by an aviator. Just saying.
As a representative of his SWO, kill-chain centric brotherhood, he isn't doing his community any favors.
PS azguy, you are trying to argue that Naval Aviation is parochial (narrow minded) with the facts that we have many mission sets, that involve several platforms and sub-communities. That sounds like the antithesis of parochialism to me. I see you have been gone for a bit. I hope this was just a drive-by trolling and you aren't really this much of an idiot.
"Primary offensive weapon of LCS is the helo" -LCS Deputy CDRE at NHA this year.
I'm the last person to drink the koolaid but the capability is there, perhaps poorly advertised...
LFCFan
*Insert nerd wings here*
Won't bother going back and digging out the quotes...
No one should pretend for a second that TLAM gives the surface navy tactical credibility. The ships themselves have very, very little to do with making those missiles hit their targets in the grand scheme of things when compared to the cells running the missions at the fleet HQs. To quote the (SWO) I worked with on a real world strike "An LTJG in a hornet has more control and responsibility over getting his weapons on target than the skipper of a DDG." And guess who does the planning for launching those missiles? Mostly aviators in non-flying jobs, although there are SWOs and FCs involved in the process.
Finally, if you think any air force in the world world is outclassing us, you're off the deep end. No one writing for National Interest or War is Boring knows the whole story for Red or Blue. We're better. Period.
No one should pretend for a second that TLAM gives the surface navy tactical credibility. The ships themselves have very, very little to do with making those missiles hit their targets in the grand scheme of things when compared to the cells running the missions at the fleet HQs. To quote the (SWO) I worked with on a real world strike "An LTJG in a hornet has more control and responsibility over getting his weapons on target than the skipper of a DDG." And guess who does the planning for launching those missiles? Mostly aviators in non-flying jobs, although there are SWOs and FCs involved in the process.
Finally, if you think any air force in the world world is outclassing us, you're off the deep end. No one writing for National Interest or War is Boring knows the whole story for Red or Blue. We're better. Period.
Hey, would you look at that. “Ask the AI,” huh? Seems the AI is backing us, not you.
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
This thread has been pretty entertaining but I can't figure out why everyone is chest-beating over the rank of the person who holds weapons release authority. There are E-2s who have weapons release authority. The reason that an O-5/O-6 has to decide whether to launch tomahawks is because of the international repercussions of doing so.
If one's metric for the size of his service-penis is based upon being the most junior rank allowed to decide to fire weapons then he should have enlisted in the Army or USMC.
The gnashing of teeth is about a potential narrowing of the capability gap and being able to protect our international interests without escalating conflict. Unfortunately some readers misconstrue that as no capability gap existing.
This is not unique to TLAMs.
I think you are taking both a narrow and overly broad view at what you term 'parochialism', what you perceive as some sort of weakness is not only a necessity but is a great strength in Naval Aviation. You are also demonstrating some significant parochialism of your own, focusing on threat WRT to SWO's vs Aviators when in fact the Navy and country itself are threatened by many of the systems that are being developed by our adversaries. An ASBM can do just as much, if not more damage, to a DDG or CG as it can to a CVN or LHD.
Your assertions here are just baffling and I'm not sure where you are coming from with this. As BigRed points out the not only from a factual point but also for what community parochialism/segmenting/alignment has little to do with specific weapon system procurement. And to echo what BigRed says, I wouldn't pat yourself on the back when it comes to ship procurement, with both the current CG and DDG fleets originating during the Cold War when the senior-most SWO leadership today was still JO's, if even out of college yet.
I would also just stop comparing weapon system vs weapon system, you obviously know enough to talk somewhat smart about things on the surface but you frankly don't know enough if you are comparing "a line USN fighter vs a line PLAN fighter". That is a amateurish assertion that might pass muster in a 'War on the Rocks' or other clickbait site but not here (someone already beat me to it). More importantly comparing just equipment is just plain stupid, the big question is whether they know how to use it. The man/woman at the controls is far more important than the equipment, which seems to have been lost on SWO's as a community since they don't even have an initial training school anymore.
I would bet they at least know the basics of what weapons and sensors were carried by both though, which is more than I can say for several post-command SWO's that I have dealt with.
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You're comparing apples and oranges, with military aviation being far more dynamic and hazardous than driving a ship at sea.
I see where you're coming from but I think you are far out of your depth when you start making outsized claims like you are doing, you are taking a very small slice of the whole picture and trying to make it like our surface fleet is going to be better off than Naval Aviation when in fact we are all in the same boat together, literally and figuratively. And frankly you need to bone up on your threat systems study, you're out of your element!
I'd take it a step further and say we're ALWAYS on the same team, and we should fucking act like it. It's always a downer when we go to the ship for a det or a deployment, and the general attitude of ship's company toward the embarked airwing is (to put it mildly), "Why should we help you?". It can be like pulling teeth just to get computer accounts set up, despite these requirements being well known ahead of time. I've seen an E5 treat an O-3 OIC with blatant disrespect, simply because the latter asked for some assistance with acquiring staterooms for aircrew. IME, this parochialism has gotten worse over the past 10 years, and we seem to be increasingly shooting behind the duck. From the other side, I've met plenty of airwing guys- both officer and enlisted- who could stand to learn a thing or two about playing nice with folks from outside our community. I'm sure those individuals make it more painful for the ship guys, and they too are part of the problem.
However, none of that means we need to pretend that ridiculous statements about our fleet's capabilities are anything but ridiculous. If folks wouldn't spout off bullshit about systems and platforms they don't fully understand, this could go a lot smoother. Because, trust me, being "totally outsticked" by a Flanker is not on my list of concerns. Especially not when something as simple as a crypto draw can result in the umpteenth round of the "blame game" between squadron, airwing, and ship. We do a pretty good job of kicking our own ass. This thread is entertaining, but it shows some of the real-world implications and misunderstandings that come from parochialism between surface and air.
Full on concur. You said it well.