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USAF Enlisted Pilots, The Right Stuff, Stolen Bikes, AIC, and SWO pipe dreams.

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
When you gents mention things like taking an OS team to Fallon for training you don’t mean for JTAC do you? I don’t think so, but I just want to clarify since I have worked, on the ground, with Army, USAF, and USMC JTAC types but don’t recall ever seeing a Navy one. As a side note all of the Marine guys I saw were officer aviators, but the others were enlisted.
 

RedFive

Well-Known Member
pilot
None
Contributor
The brown shoe navy is extremely parochial...to their own detriment.

That's pretty rich coming from a SWO. The whole reason we send pilots to do jobs on ships is because the SWO community can't be trusted to give a shit about anything unrelated to the ship. I don't see any SWOs being attached to squadrons broadening their horizons. SWOs don't even learn about tactics, weapons, aviation, etc until DH school! I'm familiar with the offensive and defensive capabilities of each of our ships, yet I'm hard pressed to find a SWO who can tell you the difference between a Romeo and a Sierra. Fuck, I'm hard pressed to find a SWO who can get the winds in the envelope, they're more scared of waking up the captain than actually making some god damn decisions.
 
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sevenhelmet

Low calorie attack from the Heartland
pilot
When you gents mention things like taking an OS team to Fallon for training you don’t mean for JTAC do you? I don’t think so, but I just want to clarify since I have worked, on the ground, with Army, USAF, and USMC JTAC types but don’t recall ever seeing a Navy one. As a side note all of the Marine guys I saw were officer aviators, but the others were enlisted.

There are Navy JTACS, in NSW and elsewhere. But no, that isn't what we're talking about. The suggestion is for OSs to attend airwing Fallon to practice and improve their airborne intercept control skills with the people they will actually be controlling while deployed.

But hey. That paint isn't going to chip itself.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
We're all products of our experience. The brown shoe navy is extremely parochial...to their own detriment.

Please elaborate, I am curious by what you base your claim on. I'm serious.
 

sparky

Member
We're all products of our experience. The brown shoe navy is extremely parochial...to their own detriment.
An officer in a flightsuit must be better than an E-dog in blue cammies, right?
Dang, this got on the offramp to the bad part of town ... please, we're all parochial precious little snowflakes. Don't make this about the color of anyone's shoes, or rating/rate/grade or whether we practice stab-stab-look-stab as part of our warfare designator.

All y'all in SURFOR are good people, just like NAVAIR is good people. Meaning we've got a quality spread. I've never known a community that has a better 'hack it' attitude than SWO/SURFOR, often to its own detriment as its people attempt to fill a 24h day with 48h of commitments and attention. Two words for SWOs; crew rest (and two more; per diem :-p ).

Amen to getting more WTI-like training out to SURFOR and OSes in particular.

I'm no pointy nose guy, nor did I play one on TV, but I'd take that Hummer NFO in a blind draw over that OS. It's not about the college degrees or lack, rating/rate/designator/grade, or community in which they chip metaphorical paint - the E-2 folks spend a pipeline's worth of effort and time focused on getting to the RAG and fleet, where they have a high set of expectations to just get winged and qual'ed, and stay qual'ed. There are great OSes just like there're exceptional NFOs. and every community I've known, even FOGOs, have a quality spread.
 

707guy

"You can't make this shit up..."
Many eons ago when I was in VFA-15 we had an OS2 spot in our manning document. The reason I heard was to help the A-7 guys transition to the Hornet and the "new" air-to-air capabilities. Of course NMPC being as efficient as always he reported to the squadron after our first Hornet cruise. Great asset at Key West and Fallon - not so much back home as he had nothing to really do. When we went to the boat he was TAD to CIC - not sure how much controlling of our pilots he did there.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Many eons ago when I was in VFA-15 we had an OS2 spot in our manning document. The reason I heard was to help the A-7 guys transition to the Hornet and the "new" air-to-air capabilities. Of course NMPC being as efficient as always he reported to the squadron after our first Hornet cruise. Great asset at Key West and Fallon - not so much back home as he had nothing to really do. When we went to the boat he was TAD to CIC - not sure how much controlling of our pilots he did there.
Sounds like a great fit for Ops Yeoman.
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
There are Navy JTACS, in NSW and elsewhere. But no, that isn't what we're talking about. The suggestion is for OSs to attend airwing Fallon to practice and improve their airborne intercept control skills with the people they will actually be controlling while deployed.

But hey. That paint isn't going to chip itself.

As with most things, it comes down to funding and priority.
I've seen CGs who are expected to be W get funded to send their entire CIC (including the OS's) out to Fallon for a week or two.
Your average DDG? Yeah, not likely.

The truth is the OS's and the ships are overtasked and undermanned.
All of the above is a great idea to get a team smart on AAW.

It'd probably be just as good to set aside some time with VP/HSM to practice/learn ASW.
Same goes for NSFS to practice Call for Fire.
Or National/Theater tasking BMD.
Or a Strike cell.

When there are a lot of competing priorities pulling from the same resources, it's hard to focus enough to get good at any one thing.

That's pretty rich coming from a SWO. The whole reason we send pilots to do jobs on ships is because the SWO community can't be trusted to give a shit about anything unrelated to the ship. I don't see any SWOs being attached to squadrons broadening their horizons.

There are SWO "WTIs" attached to NAMDC. I don't think other billets for cross-pollination/horizon broadening exist, though I agree it'd be useful. Not sure what the issue is, other than funding and getting Surface/Aviation community leadership to talk to each other...we have more than enough JOs.

I sure as shit wouldn't have minded doing a liaison tour with VP or MPRA back when I was an ASWO...I got farmed out to the TASWC cell for a few weeks at the end of a tour which was certainly enlightening.

SWOs don't even learn about tactics, weapons, aviation, etc until DH school!

Not entirely correct. It depends on platform/billet. JO's with weapons/combat systems billets should pick up tactics/weapons knowledge.
I had a leg up on some of my peers on the tactical shit with a Weapons billet, but that meant they were ahead of the curve on stuff about the Engineering plant or Deck stuff.
DH/TAOs is where that uneven distribution of tactical knowledge should be evened out.

I'm familiar with the offensive and defensive capabilities of each of our ships, yet I'm hard pressed to find a SWO who can tell you the difference between a Romeo and a Sierra.

If you know about the offensive/defensive capabilities of ships, I'm guessing you picked it up out of personal interest and exposure...not as a community requirement.
I've encountered senior VFA/VS aviators (post Command) who did not know the weapons/sensors differences between a CG/DDG. I didn't hold it against them, because if you're not picking it up out of professional necessity, you're only doing it out of personal interest. Not everybody has the same level of personal interest in extracurricular Navy shit.
Your average SWO TAO should know in a general sense what the Romeo brings to the fight, and why they don't really give a shit about the Sierra other than to bring shit from Amazon. :D

Fuck, I'm hard pressed to find a SWO who can get the winds in the envelope, they're more scared of waking up the captain than actually making some god damn decisions.

Yeah, that's a different set of problems.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
There are Navy JTACS, in NSW and elsewhere. But no, that isn't what we're talking about. The suggestion is for OSs to attend airwing Fallon to practice and improve their airborne intercept control skills with the people they will actually be controlling while deployed.

But hey. That paint isn't going to chip itself.
Thanks. That is what I thought but I wanted to be clear.
 

azguy

Well-Known Member
None
Said the SWO..... did you read any of the FITZ or JSM reports...!?

I could go on for pages as to how the SWO community is flawed, and for the reasons of FTZ and JSM. But it has nothing to do with parochialism.

Look at the many air-to-air "bumps" in the pattern and resulting deaths and mishaps that have been suffered by the VFA community in recent history. I just don't see parochialism as a causal factor.
 

azguy

Well-Known Member
None
That's pretty rich coming from a SWO. The whole reason we send pilots to do jobs on ships is because the SWO community can't be trusted to give a shit about anything unrelated to the ship. I don't see any SWOs being attached to squadrons broadening their horizons.

Wrong. You send pilots to ships because you have an arbitrary MSR and are overmanned for flying billets. VFA guys don't really do disassociated ship tours, for example.

For all the legitimate gripes you can make against SWOs, we wouldn't do something as retarded as to send our people to a totally different community where they will be treated like shit for a few years.

SWOs don't even learn about tactics, weapons, aviation, etc until DH school!

What the hell does a MH-60S or C-2 pilot know about "weapons or tactics?" SWO has the same problem. Some of our ships are pretty impotent; just as some of our a/c are...

I'm familiar with the offensive and defensive capabilities of each of our ships, yet I'm hard pressed to find a SWO who can tell you the difference between a Romeo and a Sierra.

You should understand ship caps/lims. Those are multi-billion dollar assets which are essential, since you're a helo guy. Romeo vs Sierra. Can I name every sensor? No. But I know that Romeos do SSC and ASW. Sierras dream of doing SEAL/PR shit, but in reality, do VERTREP and PAXFER. Is that 95% right?
 

azguy

Well-Known Member
None
Please elaborate, I am curious by what you base your claim on. I'm serious.

You're the largest population of officers, by far, between aviators and NFOs. But you segment yourselves into pilots vs NFO; TACAIR vs Hummer vs MPRA vs Helo.

The result? While I have great respect for our airwings, they are totally outsticked by our peers. SWOs, since we really only have 3 real platforms (AEGIS, Amphib, other), have tended to align better, and as a result, stand more effectively against our potential adversaries.
 
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