THIS WAS MY EXPERIENCE AT VANCE, SHARE YOURS. 21 May 2008

[Purdue]

If you don't mind me asking where did you do IFS?

The Pinksheet/unsat for airsicknees is rediculous are you sure thats the whole story? In Navy land thats usually an incomplete followed by some help to get over it?

I did IFS at Eglin (Yay, Double Air Force)

And yes, if everytime I got airsick (and I was worse than most I admit) it was a pink sheet, I recieved an unsat for the flight, I was restricted from flying until making an appointment and seeing the flight surgeon, and I had to repeat the flight. I did this 17 times. But I never gave up control of the aircraft while getting sick... flew with one hand, puked with the other. On several flights my IP's checked me for a puke back when we got down because I was known for doing it quietly and trying to hide it when I could... as to avoid the paperwork and UNSAT. I was dimed out by a bulging pocket of plastic bag on more than one occassion.

And also, how many times have you encountered a REAL emergency (even a relatively tame one) in the T-6? I don't know, so I am really asking.

I personally had three emergencies in the air:

• an OBOGS failure (oxygen system failure)
• My instructor oversped the gear on my first flight while demo-ing stalls
• Gear position light malfunction that required a chase ship

I knew people with other malfunctions, at we pretty much had at least one time a day where the firetrucks rolled out just to be safe. Squadron CO even had an Engine Chip light right after take-off... and then there was the "Idle-Detent malfunction that caused my buddy to accidentally kill the engine at 300 feet AGL on a go around... it became an approach article last year.

 

[scoober78]

I personally had three emergencies in the air:

• an OBOGS failure (oxygen system failure)

Only an emergency because you were in the T-6...who the hell goes that high in a T-34...

My instructor oversped the gear on my first flight while demo-ing stalls

That's not an emergency either...its a #$%^-up! See the above. Seriously...you guys had an EP for oversped gear???

 

[Gatordev]

I did IFS at Eglin (Yay, Double Air Force)

And yes, if everytime I got airsick (and I was worse than most I admit) it was a pink sheet, I recieved an unsat for the flight, I was restricted from flying until making an appointment and seeing the flight surgeon, and I had to repeat the flight. I did this 17 times. But I never gave up control of the aircraft while getting sick... flew with one hand, puked with the other. On several flights my IP's checked me for a puke back when we got down because I was known for doing it quietly and trying to hide it when I could... as to avoid the paperwork and UNSAT. I was dimed out by a bulging pocket of plastic bag on more than one occassion.

I don't know of any Vance IPs on the board, so if we have one, speak up...

What I'm wondering is how does a Navy/Marine guy who is on the MPTS curriculum get handled NOT in accordance with MPTS (are you guys on MPTS?)? If you were sick 17 times, but only received one UNSAT, I read that to mean that the UNSAT wasn't for being sick. But if you received an UNSAT 17 times, that's not right. As for the pink sheets, that's retarded, but in the end, it doesn't affect your NSS so it's moot.

It's been a while since dealing w/ airsickness, but is the airsickness instruction separate and only a Navy instruction? E6B, what do you know? From an ops standpoint, there's no benefit to UNSATing someone each time they get sick since it costs two flights to get back on track. Again, the way I understand your post, you were only UNSATed one time for being sick so I'm guessing it wasn't JUST because you got sick.

 

[danthaman]

I'm obviously not an IP, and don't know what MPTS is. However, it might be worth noting that an unsat (down) in the Navy is a totally different ballgame than an unsat (hook) in the AF. In the AF, you don't want to hook a checkride (only because you have to re-do it), but hooking a daily ride is no big deal and happens often. You don't have to "stand before the man" or anything like that. It is typically used as a tool to wake a student up that he needs to work on or correct something, and little repercussion comes of it. You just take it and continue flying. I was hooked once for not confirming with my IP that he had good OBOGS flow on the startup check. It wasn't a big deal, I just commonly forgot it in the beginning and my IP knew it and hooked me to make a point. We pressed and I had an otherwise excellent ride. I didn't miss my OBOGS checks anymore, and it didn't really hurt me that bad.

Getting an overall unsat does not affect your NSS by itself. If I hooked a flight for not doing an OBOGS check, I would get an unsat for just that one item (checklist procedures) which is only a tiny fraction of all the graded items for the whole program. On top of that I might still get aboves on everything else which would still give me an awesome flight NSS-wise. So, my point is, getting an overall unsat simply for airsickness doesn't affect your NSS. Only unsats for individually graded items hurts your NSS, and I could be wrong, but I don't think they give you that for airsickness, just an overall unsat.

The AF classifies airsickness into 2 categories; passive (not throwing up, still maintaining control of the a/c) and active (throwing up and IP having to take control). Only for active sickness is there any problems. They make you see a flight doc before you fly again and if it continues they spin you in their chair to help you get over it. Although, I have heard that it does happen, I did not personally see or know of anyone at Vance during my time there who washed out due to airsickness, but I know many people who threw up a few times and had to see the flight doc and spin.

 

[Tickle]

It's been a while since dealing w/ airsickness, but is the airsickness instruction separate and only a Navy instruction? E6B, what do you know? From an ops standpoint, there's no benefit to UNSATing someone each time they get sick since it costs two flights to get back on track. Again, the way I understand your post, you were only UNSATed one time for being sick so I'm guessing it wasn't JUST because you got sick.

I thought that if you egressed your milk duds you had to see the flight surgeon. He would give you the puke drugs for a few flights. If you launched again, you had to go to the spin and puke to be "desensitized".

Here is a great article about the wonderful experience of airsickness

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/magazine/life_of_reilly/news/1999/09/14/life_of_reilly/

 

[Gatordev]

While a little over-simplified, what you describe is pretty much how the Navy side (and MPTS) works. MPTS is "Multiservice Pilot Training Standards" (or something to that effect) and is a combination of curriculum as well as minimum grades to per block. I'd be very surprised if there wasn't a T-6 version of this document.

However, when you said this:

I would get an unsat for just that one item (checklist procedures) which is only a tiny fraction of all the graded items for the whole program. On top of that I might still get aboves on everything else which would still give me an awesome flight NSS-wise. So, my point is, getting an overall unsat simply for airsickness doesn't affect your NSS. Only unsats for individually graded items hurts your NSS, and I could be wrong, but I don't think they give you that for airsickness, just an overall unsat.

...it's not the way the Navy side works. While it's true you can get any single item below MIF, you have to make MIF by the end of the block. You can still UNSAT a flight in the middle of the block, but it has to be because you got below MIF for a specific item (there's some more details in there, but you get the idea). If you UNSAT any non -90 ride (checkride) you still progress until the end of block. If you UNSAT the end of block flight, you redo it three times. If you still can't make it past the flight, paperwork ensues (but you're still not on your way out the door, just more people looking at you trying to figure out what's going on).

 

[Gatordev]

I thought that if you egressed your milk duds you had to see the flight surgeon. He would give you the puke drugs for a few flights. If you launched again, you had to go to the spin and puke to be "desensitized".

If you puke on anything other than Fam 1 or PA 1, yes, you see the doc at some point, but you still progress. You have to be off the meds by your safe-for-solo. Guys get multiple pukes before they have to go to the spin and puke and, depending on the command and manning levels, you may not even be sent to the spin and puke (although right now that's rare).

 

[porw0004]

I thought that if you egressed your milk duds you had to see the flight surgeon. He would give you the puke drugs for a few flights. If you launched again, you had to go to the spin and puke to be "desensitized".

Here is a great article about the wonderful experience of airsickness

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/magazine/life_of_reilly/news/1999/09/14/life_of_reilly/

The pilot who flew that reporter works with me. Met him once while having lunch with the retired colonel who wrote one of my LORs.

 

[Purdue]

Again, the way I understand your post, you were only UNSATed one time for being sick so I'm guessing it wasn't JUST because you got sick.

Negative. Each time I puked I got an UNSAT.

I was a pro at the Barney-Chair... I had almost as much flight time spinning on the ground as I did in an actual aircraft.

Airsickness was more of a problem for me than most... I was at least queasy on EVERY SINGLE flight in Vance... once I hit Navy training I never even felt a twinge of unhappy stomach. I don't know if it was the "not-being-a-stressful-prick-in-the-cockpit" attitude of training... or just getting rotors...

 

[e6bflyer]

I do believe that our airsickness instruction is a CNATRA or even a wing product. The AF falls under AETC and their seven levels of beaurocracy and rulemaking that fall under it.
We do, however, incomplete students for active airsickness or if they are passively airsick and unable to maintain controls. Then they have to complete the flight later, usually after going to see Vegas and spinning for hours on end. The next flight is usually a completion flight that gets coded as an adaptation sortie if the student gets sick again. The only hard and fast rule that I know of is the SNA has to be off meds and not airsick prior to C4390 and can't be sick on a SFS ride.
Yes, the AF does use MPTS, and the unsats (or as homos like to refer to them, "hooks") work the same way as our system. The AF just likes to give them out more. I think their airsickness policy is a bit more stringent than ours.
Overspeeding the gear isn't an emergency.

 

[Gatordev]

Negative. Each time I puked I got an UNSAT.

Well that's just dumb.

The only hard and fast rule that I know of is the SNA has to be off meds and not airsick prior to C4390 and can't be sick on a SFS ride.

As of a year+ ago, you also couldn't be sick w/in two flights of the 4401. A certain AW member helped me learn that rule. (Awaiting to see if he pulls his head out from the books...)

Overspeeding the gear isn't an emergency.

What he said.

 

[Wingnut]

Definitely agree, a pink sheet for airsickness is a nonsensical policy. There was a guy in my primary class who had all kinds of trouble with airsickness, to the point where I wondered if he was going to wash for it, but he stuck with it, did his time on the spin and puke, and made it through. I remember one IP telling me on his PA solos he'd do one loop or whatever, then fly around for five minutes until his stomach settled down. That stuff sucks. I'm one of the lucky ones who's never gotten sick through all of flight training, thank God; my PA solos were the highlight of primary.

Anyway, it was interesting to see the differences between people coming from T-6s and -34s. My FAM partner was a T-6 guy, and while it was an adjustment, he did fine in T-44A land. He did have stories about AF primary; his flight got jacked on grades and such, and I'm pretty confident that you do tend to get a fairer shake in Navy primary. As for the T-6, the glass cockpit stuff is a complete waste of time if you're going back to steam gauges, and I think one of the great things about the T-34 was that their all being jacked up to some degree taught you to be able to adjust on the fly for wonky instruments (which all the P-3 guys I've flown with have assured me I'll see again). I'll admit that I am biased, but I'm convinced that I'm a better pilot for flying the T-34, and for whatever that's worth, I don't think anyone with any sense is going to try and tell me that the T-6 would have better prepared me for the T-44A or P-3 (well, EP-3 as the case may be). I've flown nothing but old planes, that's not going to change any time soon, and there's nothing wrong with that in my book.

 

[e6bflyer]

...As for the T-6, the glass cockpit stuff is a complete waste of time if you're going back to steam gauges...

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The T-6A does not have a glass cockpit. It has a bunch of computer representations of steam gauges. There is a huge difference between a MFD based system and a bunch of little screens with pictures of needle gauges on them.

This

Does not equal

 

[Pags]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The T-6A does not have a glass cockpit. It has a bunch of computer representations of steam gauges. There is a huge difference between a MFD based system and a bunch of little screens with pictures of needle gauges on them.

But, but...what if I really want to believe it's a glass cockpit?

Arguing over which training aircraft is best is one of the biggest wastes of time I can imagine.

After 100hrs, none of you are Chuck Yeager.

 

[danthaman]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The T-6A does not have a glass cockpit.

Thank you! I can't tell you how many people I have to explain this to. So many people make a big issue of the T-6 having a "glass" cockpit. Just because your steam gauges are presented to you digitally on glass displays does not make it a "glass" cockpit, by it's original definition. It looks nicer than a T-34 panel, but it doesn't give you any advantage.

BTW e6bflyer, is that second pic the T-6 Bravo? I haven't seen any representations of it yet, but have heard it is supposed to be pretty pimp.