This morning's A-pool idiocy...PT Policy and O vs PO open debate

[Flash]

but in reality, it's you all who lack the experience to be commenting on the current state of the JO's.......even if you were commissioned 5 years ago, things have changed dramatically. Even from when I was a plebe to my 1st class year, the quality of midshipmen, across the board has declined........

.......In today's age, what used to be a swift beatdown has turned into a slap on the wrist, and this is in comparrison to no more than 6 years ago.

Please, for the love of all that is holy, stop digging! In your vast experience, which apparently consists of the Academy and less than two years in flight school, is nothing compared to many on this board. And if anyone can judge the current state of JO's it is those who have seen them at work in the fleet over the past few years, not you. So quit while you can still see daylight.

Everyone always thinks things are getting worse. The level of suck has remained remarkably constant over time.

Truer words have not been spoken on this thread. Everyone thinks that things are always sliding downhill but often fail to realize that history has a way of being a bit rose-colored the further removed you are from it, even in just a few years time. Having worked with a few Vietnam vets over the past few years, they are universal in their praise of people who are serving today.

I don't think any generation is generally better or worse than the one before or after it. Simple as that.

 

[statesman]

I think me and you saw a few things differently:

I hope this clears things up a bit.

Yesterday, A-Pool started PTing with the Aircrew. To be brutally honest, we got killed. We all were obviously not able to keep up with Aircrew.

Spot on, no disagreements here. We need the PT. I probably need it more than any one else, but over all I think the PT session was a success and should be continued.

Today at muster the Student Control Ensigns allowed a open forum, to an extent, about how PT went. There was a dozen or so vocal comments about how we shouldn't be PTing with aircrew, or we should have an easier PT session, etc... The general nature of the vocal comments was one of entitlement to an easier time.

This was embarrassing to be sure, or maybe more disappointing. Not that the discussion was taking place, but that people were really upset about A Pool PT. Its at most 2 hours, you're getting paid way too much money to complain about 2 hours of work.

PO2 must have been hanging out in back listening to these Ensigns go on about how there life is being ruined by PTing with Aircrew. So in his own way, he came up and stated his piece. When he came up he said, "With respect to all officers in the room," and then went on (in his own way) to tell us that we shouldn't be considering ourselves better then the Aircrew. One Ensign decided to not allow PO2 complete any of his sentences, and so PO2 left.

This is where my perspective and yours differ. AM2 probably shouldn't have been in the back at what amounts to an infant JOPA meeting. Just before saying "No offense..." he also said "Since it's an open floor...". It was an open floor to diaper wearing JOPA members, not him. And to be fair the Ensign that interrupted him did so with a raised hand, not a shout. He then stormed off.


I should say that when I sat down at my computer directly after getting home I thought the AM2 was completely in the right. I feel exactly opposite now. I corresponded privately with one of our winged LTs here at AirWarriors, someone who I respect a great deal and who has both enlisted and officer time, and he helped me to see that AM2s actions were absolutely out of line.

First it should be noted that there are two issues here and they are separate issues:
1.) Ensigns feeling that they shouldnt have to PT, or at least not with the enlisted air crew candidates.

2.) The AM2 debacle.


Issue 1 was being handled by what amounts to a little baby JOPA. It was embarrassing to hear our co-ensigns talk as though they were above the enlisted, and display such feelings of entitlement but this issue was being worked out, and still needs to be worked out. The travesty of Issue 1 does not excuse how AM2 behaved.

No mater how upset he was at what he heard he should not have addressed the A Pool body the way he did. As I said before it was not an open floor for anyone, it was an open floor for officers in A Pool. Furthermore he should not have stormed off as he did. And while his voice was somewhat under control he was out and out bitching at the A Pool officers for something that was of no consequence for him.

 

[JD81]

PT is getting more and more ridiculous. We're supposed to be learning how to take responsibility and do it ourselves, not go back to OCS or the Academy and have someone make us do it. They should set up times for group free-PT and encourage mutual support.

As was stated earlier, it only takes one to screw up for the crowd. A rash of people failing the PRT = mando PT for everyone. If you cannot find the time to run/workout 3 times a week in A-pool you are wrong. I was stashed at the NASC pool and worked MAYBE 8 hours a WEEK, obviously, I had more time off than I knew what to do with. The problem, it seems, is that the A-pool(or more precisely a select few) has demonstrated they cannot do this for themselves, which only invites the mando PT coming down from above.

The responsibility given to A-pool Ensigns is not a lot, but there doesn't need to be. Stay in shape, stay out of trouble, be prepared. As flight students we are not on the 'team' yet, we are given the chance to be on the team, we haven't earned anything other than the chance to prove ourselves, and in my two years in flight school I have noticed if you can do these 3 things you will have little or no problems. I'm only giving my opinion, and not trying to preach.

-J

 

[Jersey]

For The Record...

Look everyone,

I am the Ensign that raised her hand and stated, CALMLY, "I think you should consider the tone in which you are addressing us." That is literally ALL I SAID. I did not "berate" him; I did not get into a pissing match with him. I did not cut him off - I raised my hand until he called on me. I said that one sentence and he chose to storm out, lighting us up with a dozen F-bombs. I am not entirely sure how this situation has gotten out of hand with the comments about my personal character and professionalism. I am not a "shit bag" or a "d-bag" O-1. I am not a "jock" or "leadership failure" who just put on the uniform 3 months ago.

I am a prior senior E-6 with 10 years in the Navy.

That being said, at no point in MY enlisted career would I have had the right to enter a room full of officers, male and female, and start cussing and "correcting" them - regardless of “situational authority.” I found his words and approach offensive and disrespectful. I was happy to hear what he wanted to say; I expected it to be insightful. When he opened his mouth; however, and started to cuss and yell at us, he crossed the line. It was at that point where I felt that saying, "I think you should consider the tone in which you are addressing us" would be for his immediate benefit. If you think my words were tactless, I would be glad to take suggestions. If you feel like I should have done that in private, let me ask you a question. When you are in your squadron as a DIVO and an E-5 is being disrespectful to you in a very visible way, are you going to allow it to continue until he is finished and then pull him aside and talk to him once the damage has been done? I hope the answer is no. You cannot wait to correct public disrespect (tactfully). I would expect nothing less from any officer (or senior enlisted) under whom I served.

Regarding the pt content of the discussion, I had no input. Heck, I've not been to a single pt session with the aircrew; I've never even seen that guy before! (I was in IFS) I LIKE pt. I have nothing else to do (except play with my 2 y/o daughter). Still, if people don't like the way pt is going they should be allowed to voice their opinions and make suggestions in a public forum. I don't think anyone expected him to be lurking back there.

I hope my intensions and actions were made a little clearer. There was no fist fight and no screaming match. I had no problem with him speaking; I wanted to hear his response to the complaints others posed. I just couldn't allow an E-5 to cuss at and talk down to a room full of officers. His "situational authority" does not allow for that type of behavior, regardless of billet. That's Navy-wide. As far as us having to "learn from the enlisted" or "use him as a mentor," do not ever walk out of a public forum saying, "Man, F*ck this! F*ck this sh*t!"...

 

[Bevo16]

I can honestly say that the quality of officers to come out of Texas A&M has increased since I started there back in 04. and more words

Well, they had nowhere to go but up.

It has been my experience (both as an officer and while I was enlisted) that it takes 2-3 years of active duty time to un-fuck what the Corps of Cadets teaches you guys at aggie-land.

Here is a head start:

Nobody goes "whoop" on active duty.
Nobody wants to hear about your "red-ass".
If you are going to bind someone with tape, book some time in the brig.
Dogs are not leaders.
Your GI-Joe club was not the military. Not even close.


Trust me, you don't want to get started on the bonfire mess. It is a travesty that the CO and the entire staff of the Corps in 2000 is not in Leavenworth for their negligence. Those kids died in large part because the people who were entrusted with their safety were not doing their jobs. Basic supervision and leadership was totally thrown out the window in the name of "tradition".

The Aggie Corps of Cadets is for the most part an embarrassment to the state of Texas. If they are not throwing feces on visiting bands, they are squeezing their nuts until their faces turn red on national TV.

As a Texan, I can't overemphasize my desire to excommunicate these clowns from my state. LSU does not want them. Arkansas and Oklahoma already have enough issues with "brother love" and inbreeding, and California is scared they will take over.

Why they can't have a normal and functional ROTC unit, nobody knows.

 

[rare21]

^^^ oh damn, where's my ballistic vest???

 

[desertoasis]

Unnecessary insulting...

That was completely unnecessary and contributed nothing to this discussion. I was asked a question, and I answered it from my point of view, without intending to offend anyone, talk my old school up, or brag about myself at all. Why you felt it necessary to contribute an inflammatory and to be frank, rude, opinion, that has no bearing to either his original question or to my answer is beyond me. Is it really that important to talk down an Aggie who is choosing to serve his country just BECAUSE he's an Aggie?

I think not.

 

[HAL Pilot]

If A-pool is anything like it was way back in '07, I'm betting STUCON is already all over this and there will be an LT (or higher) there to rain down some pain tomorrow.

Suck it up.

PT is good for you.

This is how it should have been from the beginning.

Leadership 101 - if you are going to send the troops out to do something, you send a senior person out to lead it.

Further, any idiot should have realized that aircrew candidates are going to be PTing at a level above the average Sailor / officer. You don't send a bunch of newly commissioned officers out to PT with a bunch of junior enlisted folk in this type of environment. Even if the Os were on their best behavior, the aircrew candidates would probably out perform most of them and the junior Es would lose some respect for Os. (I see this as similar to throwing a newly commissioned NROTC guy into the middle of an OCS PT session).

Edit: I'm assuming the PT at Aircrew Candidate School is the same as it was when I was in.....on the same level as OCS.

 

[Bevo16]

a really good explination that is exactly like I have gotten from several folks by PM

Like somone said earlier, you don't wait to stop insubordination. Good work. Rep for you on your first post.

It sounds like you were trying to do the "salty" E-5 a favor and that he should be put on report (or strongly re-trained at a minimum). Saying "with all due respect" does not give you the right to be disrespectful.

When addressing a group of senior officers you don't storm of in a stream of profanity, you wait to be dismissed.

 

[Sky-Pig]

That was completely unnecessary and contributed nothing to this discussion. I was asked a question, and I answered it from my point of view, without intending to offend anyone, talk my old school up, or brag about myself at all. Why you felt it necessary to contribute an inflammatory and to be frank, rude, opinion, that has no bearing to either his original question or to my answer is beyond me. Is it really that important to talk down an Aggie who is choosing to serve his country just BECAUSE he's an Aggie?

I think not.

Lighten up...and ImfromJersey should give Bevo a great, big wet kiss for jacking this thread and removing the focus and heat from his questionable posts.

 

[desertoasis]

Lighten up...

I'm fine, actually thoroughly enjoying the fact that a thread I started has elicited such a discussion. It just came off as unnecessarily forceful rather than funny. If laughs were the intent, Bevo, I'm sorry I didn't see that.

 

[HAL Pilot]

....I am the Ensign that raised her hand and stated, CALMLY, "I think you should consider the tone in which you are addressing us." .....I am a prior senior E-6 with 10 years in the Navy......

Good for you. If this is the case, you did exactly the right thing.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Is it really that important to talk down an Aggie who is choosing to serve his country just BECAUSE he's an Aggie?

As good a reason as any. Lighten up Francis.

 

[Bevo16]

That was completely unnecessary and contributed nothing to this discussion. I was asked a question, and I answered it from my point of view, without intending to offend anyone, talk my old school up, or brag about myself at all. Why you felt it necessary to contribute an inflammatory and to be frank, rude, opinion, that has no bearing to either his original question or to my answer is beyond me. Is it really that important to talk down an Aggie who is choosing to serve his country just BECAUSE he's an Aggie?

If you are looking for bonus points for serving, you are in the wrong group.

If you feel the truth is inflammatory or rude, tough.

I was not talking down to you because you are an aggie. I am talking down to the school because their program is a joke for all of the (100% true) reasons that I provided. Texas A&M's Corps of Cadets is not relevant to the discussion of how Naval Officers are prepared because the majorty of the "cadets" are not on ROTC scholarship and don't even enter service (much less the Navy). It is nothing more than a fraternity with uniforms. The Sea Cadets have stronger ties to the Navy that A&M's Corps of Cadets.


Your reaction is very typical of A&M graduates. Any situation you see you go back to "my time in the corps". THE CORPS OF CADETS AT TEXAS A&M IS NOT THE MILITARY!!! Trust me, everybody you know wants you to shut up about the "corps", and they don't give a damn about your ring.

I did not post what I did for you to laugh at, but most non-aggys will think it is funny (in a "truth hurts" kind of way). I was at the bonfire site the day that the log stack fell, and witnessed those torn bodies being pulled from under the logs. Then I ended up at one of the "red-pots" homes and he had 10 kegs in his back-yard because they had to get them off site before the cops showed up. All that "tradition" killed 12 kids, and the idiots there still build the fucking thing every year off campus.

There is no excuse for the continued existence of the Aggy Corps. They should shit-can the whole thing and run a normal ROTC unit.

 

[squorch2]

When you are in your squadron as a DIVO and an E-5 is being disrespectful to you in a very visible way, are you going to allow it to continue until he is finished and then pull him aside and talk to him once the damage has been done?

This.

Rep.