This morning's A-pool idiocy...PT Policy and O vs PO open debate

[desertoasis]

To everyone smarter than A-pool (otherwise known as everyone on earth):

There was a spirited discussion this morning in A-pool about the new PT policy, that quickly turned into a display of ensign immaturity. Some things need to be cleared up and quick, so please feast on the bounty, winged O's. We (the A-pool) need a swift kick in the rear.

1. You do not berate someone who has positional authority over you in a public setting. I don't care if he's enlisted. You may be an officer now, but that doesn't mean you're on a pedestal. He knows better than you, and that's not a matter of opinion. It's a fact. If he's yelling at you, he's doing it for a reason (i.e. to tell you you're being ridiculous), and he's been in the Navy a hell of a lot longer than you.

2. If the NASC standards says we SHALL PT three days a week, why are we even having this discussion? You should be PTing anyways. It's TWO hours out of your day...what else do you have to do that's so important?

3. A-pool is a paid vacation, everyone knows that...and somehow the ensigns keep finding ways to screw it up by saying that we are doing too much work. Welcome to the Navy, this will be the easiest time you'll have in the fleet. This is your JOB, and taxpayer dollars are going towards you mustering for half an hour in the auditorium. Imagine what the public would think if they knew that we were pulling this crap, getting paid with their money. It's not too much to ask that you follow the rules of your job. Start putting out or get the hell out of my Navy, and make room for someone who's willing to put the effort out.

4. "We're not Aircrew...we don't have to do this stuff." Ummmm, yes you are, and yes you do. Any SNA or SNFO who doesn't think they are aircrew should readjust their attitude or put on black shoes and go to periscope depth. Are you involved with the safe operation of the aircraft? Answer yes, and you're aircrew. Deal with it.

5. ENSIGNS ARE NOT ENTITLED TO A THING EXCEPT THE OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN IN THE NAVY LONGER THAN THEY HAVE. Money is being invested in you, the least you can do is pretend to appreciate the opportunity. Nothing chaps me more than idiots who think they are entitled. You've been in the Navy for a month, maybe two. You don't know jack.

This morning was the most embarrassing thing I have ever seen.

 

[Slammer2]

This sounds a lot like some Lt's shitty attitudes in Mike Co at TBS.

 

[xj220]

Oh man, I would have loved to have been there to see what went down.

 

[FlyinRock]

Well, I wasn't there so can't comment on specifics. But I have seen a lot of young officers come into the IFS program that thought it was a cake walk and now that they were college grads and officers, they didn't have to put out any more.
Surprise surprise they get to fly with me and find out life is not as they expected. Oh MY God you mean we have to study for this? Oh MY God you mean we have to prepare? Oh My God this is not what I expected.. etc etc.
One of the first comments I make to these young studs is "down the road someone is going to try to kill your young ass and you better start paying attention. IFS is simply the baby step to a hard two years and you better get your feces in one basket right now or you ain't gonna survive it". (exceptions apparently being if you went to Canoe U).
Many times I have challenged some of the young studs to a physical display such as normal pushups and embarassed them when I equaled their best on one arm and then asked if they wanted to try it again.
For christsake I'm in my 70's and they can't keep up with me? What is wrong with that picture?
It appears to be a trend in our society and one that bothers me. All I can hope for is my young son will not follow the herd over the cliff.
Semper Fi
Rocky

 

[statesman]

Desert I completely agree. Today was about the most embarrassing and asinine display I have ever witnessed. I sat there today honestly wondering if what I was seeing was actually happening.

As for PSW's comment, the enlisted member in question was a bit hot under the collar, and I think he could have been more effective had he been more calm. That said the ENS that called him out could have and should have been far more tactful. Both individuals handled things with out an ounce of professionalism.

 

[webmaster]

You should not berate him particularly in a public setting but at the same time he should not be yelling at you. Positional authority does not give someone the right to be disrespectful.

I completely concur with PSW here. BUT, who knows? None of the rest of us were there.

Flip side of what PSW said though, enlisted personnel (no matter the rank) are not there on our sufferance, respect and professional courtesy is a two way street. I have had my less than stellar moments over the years as an officer, one notable one in Maintenance control last year where I "lost it" on a first class. As officer's don't undermine your authority and respect that your sailors have for you. You will determine what type of officer you want to be, with regards to leadership style, but how you motivate them, and interact with them professionally speaks volumes to your effectiveness as a leader. Vice, "I am a (insert rank), you have to do what I say" attitude.

This can be a pretty good discussion thread, IMHO.

John

 

[ImfromJersey]

WTF happened this morning?

 

[BarrettRC8]

Well, I wasn't there so can't comment on specifics. But I have seen a lot of young officers come into the IFS program that thought it was a cake walk and now that they were college grads and officers, they didn't have to put out any more.
Surprise surprise they get to fly with me and find out life is not as they expected.

Oh Rocky, you're not that bad.

 

[statesman]

In this case I think AM2 was trying to prove a point: that just because we are officers doesnt mean we are above PTing with the Air Crew candidates. He did it in a way that was not very effective, and served to offend several people. I don't think his point was well received and it had everything to do with delivery.

Which by the way I liked yesterdays thrash session. After Christmas break, moving, and laying down my bike, it has been some time since I have PT'd. PTing with the Air Crew candidates is a good way to jump back into it.

 

[webmaster]

I agree they are not at our sufferance but respect is a two way street as you pointed out. The Sailor has much more experience and should already have learned that lesson. He's also in a mentoring role. I wasn't there but sounds like that was in short supply.

Definitely sounds like it went downhill from both sides. Hopefully "learning" has occurred...?? perhaps??

 

[statesman]

Not a chance. Both people stormed off thinking they were right.

 

[desertoasis]

By the time they were done, most everyone I saw was gape-mouthed wondering if it had actually just happened...I think that most people in the pool were pretty aghast that it was devolved (?) that quickly. It got pretty painful waiting for those last few people to finish talking.

I should mention that it wasn't all bad. There was an excellent suggestion about ability group PT. I agree that it is probably a good idea, since not everyone is a marathoner or bodybuilder, but I agree with the STUCON ensigns that there simply isn't enough manpower to staff that many groups. It's something that should be considered though.

 

[ImfromJersey]

For any old salts reading this thread, please answer. Has this been a problem forever? Disrespect, un-officer like qualitities, etc etc. Is the trend of being a D-bag officer a new one or one that's been around for a while? I've noticed a decay in the overall quality of new JO's, even in the short time I've been in the Navy, but it's military wide it seems. The commissioning sources need a serious overhaul. They've been softened up so badly over the years, for various political reasons, that the officers they're producing are pretty pathetic. PT, respect, tradition, nothing is what it was of the older days and the products of these sources is suffering. I'm talking across the board, from academies to ROTC units. Does anyone else feel like there's a correlation to the decline of the comm sources and the shitty JO's we see in the fleet today?

 

[Bevo16]

Since I am also in the dark here on what exactly happened, I will just add that it sounds like a leadership ond professionalism failure on several levels.

One thing that should be cleared up though, is that there are very few situations where a 2nd Class Petty Officer has positional authority over an officer, and morning PT is certainly not one of those cases. If the folks who are in charge of A-Pool have sent a hard charging 2nd Class Rescue Swimmer to facilitate PT, that does not give the 2C the authority to order the officers around. He is leading PT. That's it. If someone wants to give attitude and not put out or leave. Fine. Part of facilitating PT would be to note who was doing what, and report those actions back to the people who put them in charge (probably senior to a ENS) and let them handle it.

If the 2C was being a dick and was treating the officers like he was treated by the chiefs and instructor staff at Rescue Swimmer School, then the guy probably did need to get stomped on. I have seen a situation very similar to that while on a midshipman cruise. A group of young marines who were no senior than E-3 decided to go R. Lee Ermey on some midshipmen. I didn't stand for it (being a prior-enlisted, I was not as clueless as some of the mids who were taking it), and the confontation turned physical. None of that ended well for those Marines.

One of the biggest take-aways for the A-pool guys should be that when you are assigning an enlisted person to instruct officers, make sure that they have a clear set of guidelines on how to act, and they know how to handle a situation if someone (who should know better) loses their cool. When someone lets their professionalism slip, try not to roll around in the mud with them (unless a LCPL takes a swing at you, at that point you defend yourself). Keep your cool and do the right thing.

 

[C420sailor]

This morning was straight-up embarrassing. I can't believe the f*^#ed up sense of entitlement that some ensigns have. If you think it's a bad deal shut your mouth, put your man pants on, and deal with it.