The perennial Navy vs AF flight school smackdown (split from the "What %" article)

[phrogpilot73]

Then there are the screamers that just scream, because.

I was a post combat-deployment HAC/section lead/division lead/TERFI/NSI and was headed to WTI the next week. I was on the schedule to take the group CO out to refresh his NVG stuff. He screamed at me the whole night and tried to wrestle the controls out of my hand at one point. He screamed at me that I was confusing him and therefore probably confusing the Lts (Actually sir, I'm teaching them and you in accordance with the Stan Man). When we went no-shit lost comm, and came back to the line to troubleshoot - I looked at him and told him we were done for the night. I was going to incomplete him for maintenance and another NSI could take him out - because I wasn't flying with him again. I didn't have shit to prove to the guy.

The next day (after he read the Stan Man, should have done it before the flight), he came and apologized.

 

[Lawman]

To provide a little more perspective, we have the Stand up EP session in Army Flight training. Its not nearly as full retard regimented hazing as is described of the AF way of doing it. Its more a portion of the briefing that your expected to be prepaired for. EPs and Limits are only a portion of this. Daily questions as well as previously covered course material is included in the Standup go around the room portion of our flight briefing. Its sorta a way for the Flight Commander and the IPs to guage how much collectively as a class and individually for particular students we are hitting the books. You dont have to stand rigidly at attention and describe to the infintesimal detail what color the knob/switch/handle your reaching for and how your hand will be positioned. Its more if you fumblefuck your way through underlined portions of the EP, you got it wrong. You may sit down with your shame or you may get asked a followup to see what you know. In addition to that if you continue to do it on a routine basis you get mandatory study hall at the Tech Lab and it goes into your grades for oral knowledge for the day. If the class as a whole is unprepaired then the whole class will end up at the tech lab. Kinda helps to keep you motivated to learn your shit so you arent "that guy" in the class or the 3rd dude to jack something all up and get the class sent to studyhall.

 

[HuggyU2]

...even their jargon is terrible.

You mean like "COMNAVMETEURTRACONLANTSLIPSLOPFLIPFLOPNICKNACKPADDYWHACKGIVEADOGABONE"??

 

[phrogpilot73]

You mean like "COMNAVMETEURTRACONLANTSLIPSLOPFLIPFLOPNICKNACKPADDYWHACKGIVEADOGABONE"??

So you mean that the 335th Fighter Squadron is any better? Are there 334 others?

Realistically, all services are fucked up in their naming conventions...

 

[Jim123]

Because there's no way to simulate the actual stress experienced in flight when an emergency occurs

Exactly! Hacker, thanks for spelling it out.

Anything short of an actual emergency is simulated stress. Different students respond differently to different kinds of stress, therefore good flight training uses a variety of tools. The program does the best job it can with all of those tools: Some guys suck at one-on-one oral brief, some guys suck in the plane, the simulator, academic tests, some guys suck at stand-up... If you figure out how to fit the mold in time then you get your wings.

"Simulated" engine failure on training flight... student saw/felt the throttle move because the instructor moved it to initiate the emergency.

"Simulated" fire on a training flight... student still has gut feeling, "The instructor made that warning light come on..."

"Simulated" emergency in simulator... student gas gut feeling, "Nobody ever died in the sim..."

...etc.

For all of these, stress = fear of making instructor mad/getting a bad grade =/= real consequences. Everybody knows flight school is "high risk training" but most students still have a subconscious/gut instinct that the instructor pilot can always take over and "save" the aircraft. (Although all students will consciously acknowledge that that notion is unrealistic).

Great emergency training would be for the ODO to have a remote control for all the engine/fuel/electrical caution lights for when junior heads out on a solo flight, ha ha ha

 

[torpedo0126]

I think thats actually where it differentiates. 88's and 89's at Vance don't stick out. They just become another flight in a normal conversation. People would bust checkrides for such petty reasons, like forgetting to turn the nose wheel steering on when turning onto the taxiway, or saying "um" when giving a boldface during your tabletop. The best reason would be when people would bust for pubs because they wrote the date wrong in the change column or forgot to put the comma in the wrong spot.

I think my quote may have started this unintentionally. After looking at it, I realized that it came off a different way I intended. I was trying to point out that because Vance students bust for such small reasons, 88/89 rides are pretty commonplace. When I said 'petty' I merely meant to point out that something as simple as that or forgetting a comma in your pubs could trigger an 88/89. It seemed like everyday someone had one, yet it never seemed like a big deal. There were several students both AF and maritime that busted every checkride but would pass the "big picture" 88/89.

I experienced UPT, and other than the long days, I had no major issues. The training was high quality and ruthlessly efficient. In fact, that might be my biggest complaint as sometimes the timeline was more important than the student. Best thing about Vance was getting to know your class. Made way better friends there than I have in Pensacola. I did not volunteer for Vance, but knowing what I know now and the fact that the T-34s are being grounded all the time, I would have no problem volunteering.

Again, did not mean to start a Navy vs. AF thing.

 

[scoolbubba]

See ... there's your problem today. You're afraid of someone being 'mean' to you. You're afraid to wet yourself & cry like a little girl . I cried, I wet, I've been there -- and I still learned.

If SCREAMERS were the 'norm' again ... if they were, say 50% ... if they were common, rather than the exception ... rather than just 'existing', as you say --- if they hadn't been emasculated and spayed and neutered over the last couple of decades ... then you'd have more competent Instructors who were SCREAMERS as well (law of averages) ... and you'd learn to deal w/ some modest level of "STRESS" before you get into NViet, Syrian, Libyan, Iranian, Chi-com, Rooskie, Serbian, NK, or what-have-you airspace ... and mebbe they *GASP* ... 'SCREAM' at you while they're trying to kill you ...

Or mebbe you just get a 'mean' lead flight attendant on the WHALE. Stress & flyin' .... crying ... learning ... wetting ... it's all still there ... different face; same-o, same-o ...

I had screamers who screamed just to hear themselves, whether I was flying the damn thing right or not. I usually copped an attitude and acted like more of a dick back to them...there was always the FUDITN attitude at Vance (where most of the screamers were, coincidentally, FAIPs) - Fuck you dude, I'm in the Navy! Salute an 0-1 because he's an IP? Nahga nahgaaa nahgannahappenthislifetime! I already five-d out my Spin last flight, so this time, with el doucherino (if you're not into that whole brevity thing) let's put the stick a little extra forward and watch him peel his face off the canopy. P

Did I cry, or break down and stop flying the plane? Apparently not bad enough to warrant failure, because I never hooked with a screamer (cept that one beezy at Seacrets...but I digress)...and I guess there's always the great examples of piss poor airmanship/leadership that you can take away from someone, but to think a douchebag with a napoleon complex in an airplane, beating on a guy who is trying to learn how to fly is an effective/professional to train an aviator? We all know better. I'd rather not disappoint someone I know is a legitimate good guy/good stick than piss off someone who is a douchebag.

 

[A4sForever]

Here's what I think some of you guys "don't get" ('don't get' = for the record: I hate that term) ...

SCREAMING is NOT an inherently 'good thing' and it's NOT an instructional technique per se --it is, however, a sign of frustration on many levels -- and some of it manifested in Flight Instructors when they see the same mistakes made .... over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and..... see what I mean??? Make you wanna' SCREAM ???

It seems to be more prevalent when less experienced instructors are paired w/ less experienced STUDs, but it can happen on any given day ... which again, doesn't make it 'right or wrong' ... but nevertheless that's the way it rolls. I've experienced it in the military & civie-street, but personally -- I never 'raised' my voice w/ any STUD I ever had -- didn't need to, as the STUD would usually 'self-destruct' when botching a procedure (if I handled correctly) and would come to see the error of his ways WITHOUT me SCREAMING. Self-correction ... you gotta' love it! I was tough, but I was fair. And I wasn't a Santa Claus ... if you came to me knowing your shit -- it was gonna' be an 'easy' ride. If you didn't ... it was gonna' be one of the longest days you've ever experienced ...

I even got it once (twice?? 100 times ???) in the airlines ... but by that time I knew how to deal w/ it as I was a professional pilot w/ lots of miles on my frequent flyer card. I KNEW what I had to put up with and what I didn't have to endure. And that was even while on probation at airline #3 -- but the point remains: I KNEW how much shit I had to eat and in one case (on probation) this particular instructor didn't. He was badgering me and badgering me and trying to 'break' me down. The better I did, the more pissed he became. Soooooooooooooo ... after I spun around in the seat and stuck my finger in his face and 'suggested' the sim period WAS OVER AND WE PROBABLY SHOULD GO TALK TO THE CHIEF PILOT IN THE A.M. ... his eyes got big, he backed off and didn't fuck w/ me again. He was into intimidation and was an overall lousy instructor. He was a congenital SCREAMER.

And while SCREAMING's not desirable -- it's still THERE ... always has been, always will be .... and you, as a Naval Aviator, have to deal with 'it' and many, many other things as well ... perhaps when you have more hours under your belt(s) and have seen more ... you'll "get it".

You just have to know how much shit you are required to eat.

DO YOU 'GET IT' NOW ... ??? :icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

 

[scoolbubba]

Is there an echo in here? Flown with screamers: Check. Learned to deal with douchebags in the cockpit: check. Either fly better than them and shut 'em up, or put them in their place: check.


Yea. Looks like I had it all along, wasn't really anything to "not get."

 

[Catmando]

I have on occasion in the past screamed at my wife for dumb (and a few dangerous) mistakes she made while we were sailing. But over the years, neither our marriage, nor our sailboat has ever been on the rocks.

Today we only laugh about those times, now both sailing and living well together.

 

[Gatordev]

Words (in bold)...

That's a fairly enlightened view of "screaming." I think the problem is that many screamers don't understand the value of screaming in a limited way, kind of like a tool that you don't want to use everyday, but something there that can be effective. Personally, I don't like to scream. To me (again, my personal take) is that if I have to scream, it's because I'm failing to convey the information properly or I've managed to let the situation get the better of me and now I'm reactive instead of proactive. That's a place I don't like to be in the cockpit.

But I've always gone by the wise words of my dad..."Don't sweat the small stuff...and it's all small stuff."

 

[RadicalDude]

But I've always gone by the wise words of my dad..."Don't sweat the small stuff...and it's all small stuff."

I always preferred:
"Don't sweat the petty, pet the sweaty."

 

[Alpha_Echo_606]

That's a fairly enlightened view of "screaming." I think the problem is that many screamers don't understand the value of screaming in a limited way, kind of like a tool that you don't want to use everyday, but something there that can be effective. Personally, I don't like to scream. To me (again, my personal take) is that if I have to scream, it's because I'm failing to convey the information properly or I've managed to let the situation get the better of me and now I'm reactive instead of proactive. That's a place I don't like to be in the cockpit.

But I've always gone by the wise words of my dad..."Don't sweat the small stuff...and it's all small stuff."

Wise words to live by, it might be something that takes time to be able to do though. Over the last 3 years I've really been getting a good grip on not sweating the small stuff, people ask me now "hey Rich, why are you always smiling?" Those are the same people that would have blown my top on just 3 years ago, seems it bothers them that I'm not letting it get to me now.

 

[jarhead]

See ... there's your problem today. You're afraid of someone being 'mean' to you. You're afraid to wet yourself & cry like a little girl...

I'm not a screamer, by far, but during my time as an IP, I had one LTJG and one Marine Captain cry during the debrief... it was quite awkward to say the least.

Screamer's never really bothered me ... I usually tuned them out.

SF

 

[Lawman]

Screamers never bothered me. I can tune it out and concentrate on the menuvers. I know when I suck, I know when I nailed it. If he wants to scream just to hear his own voice oh well thats what the volume button on the ICS is for. I think the IPs that drive me up the wall to the point it effects my flying are the ones that purposely either neglect or ignore duties that would be expected of them as a crew member.

I had a check pilot in Primary actually tell me and the other student flying with him "I dont clear the Aircraft, thats your job." Granted I can barely see the out the left side of the aircraft, especially given some of the LSI IP's we have. Had an guest IP in instruments tell me "I dont write down clearances at all," which makes it real f'ing interesting since Im supposed to be on the controls during the flight. Ive also talked to guys during the BCS portion of flightschool (50 feet off trees following stream beds and ridgelines) that they've had IPs play stupid just to make life difficult. I know theres guys out there that dont know their ass from a hole in the ground out their in the real Army. But you cant tell me "I cant see the river/hilltop/ridgeline/bridge/road/etc use rally terms" when its obvious to me a less than 100 hour aviator and your the one thats supposed to be completely outside the cockpit.