Mucho Gracias!
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The perennial Navy vs AF flight school smackdown (split from the "What %" article)
- Thread starter scoolbubba
- Start date
Mucho Gracias!
I seem to remember an early T-34 sim where you had to close your eyes and point at various switches, knobs, and gauges. When I couldn't point directly to one of the instrument gauges the sim instructor said, "Now what happens if your cockpit is full of smoke at night and you have no instrument lights? How are you going to be able to tell what ___ says?" All I could think was "what the hell good does it do me to know where the gauge is if I can't read it in the first place?" I passed, no real issue, but I'm still not sure whether the sim instructor was really mad or just yanking my chain.
All I can say after reading this thread is: I thank God that I went through training when I did and didn't have to put up with this BS that is being talked about. I don't think it was any easier, but everybody back then had the big picture and didn't get wrapped around the axle worrying about the minutia. My favorite immediate action item in the A-7 was for Out of Control Flight: "AHAAA", which was sufficient when asked by a RAG instructor. A: AFCS-Disconnect H: Hands and feet off the controls A: Angle of Attack-Monitor A: Airspeed-Monitor A: Altitude-Monitor, and it didn't have to be verbatim out of the NATOPS, as long as you knew what you were supposed to do. I wouldn't have made it in this day and age if I'd had to remember to say "BOLDFACE APPLIES, BOLDFACE IS".
Yes. It will be spelled out in every detail.
Times, they are a changin'
Now the newest jets/aircraft record every action the pilots do. Thousands of parameters. 'They' can then review, and of course criticize your every action.
Lets say your a flying the Navy's newest aircraft, only a couple built so far. Lets say that new aircraft has an emergency, say... a port engine catches fire. Lets say you do the first steps quickly: pull the throttle, and hit the Fire light (which also secures fuel). But then you say, wait... no fast hands in the cockpit, and the next step is firing the halon bottles. So you decide to confirm the fire, collect your wits, and then finish the bold face. 'Wind the clock' if you will. Yep, it's not a false alarm, you are in fact on fire. You finish the boldface, use afterburner on the other engine to get the jet on the deck of the nearest emergency airfield. Hero?
No, you instead sit for the next 2 months while they have a board examining why it took you so long to finish the boldface.
That's the future. Don't give them a reason to add a contibuting factor of: pilot error. Know your stuff. They will know if you don't know.
Now the newest jets/aircraft record every action the pilots do. Thousands of parameters. 'They' can then review, and of course criticize your every action.
Lets say your a flying the Navy's newest aircraft, only a couple built so far. Lets say that new aircraft has an emergency, say... a port engine catches fire. Lets say you do the first steps quickly: pull the throttle, and hit the Fire light (which also secures fuel). But then you say, wait... no fast hands in the cockpit, and the next step is firing the halon bottles. So you decide to confirm the fire, collect your wits, and then finish the bold face. 'Wind the clock' if you will. Yep, it's not a false alarm, you are in fact on fire. You finish the boldface, use afterburner on the other engine to get the jet on the deck of the nearest emergency airfield. Hero?
No, you instead sit for the next 2 months while they have a board examining why it took you so long to finish the boldface.
That's the future. Don't give them a reason to add a contibuting factor of: pilot error. Know your stuff. They will know if you don't know.
There is a format in which the Stand UP EP is supposed to progress and is found in the AF's equivalent to the FTI. We had ours written up on a dry erase board for easy reference. And since we had to be there for 12 hours a day, some people would even go as far as chair fly standup. Having experienced AF and Navy training though, I would have to say that I would feel more comfortable in an emergency after what I learned from the Navy side of the house.
Agree wholeheartedly ... they don't seem to be able to separate the 'wheat from the chaff' (what's important vs. what's not -- as someone already said) these days ... everyone is very, very constipated.
The second item -- A-7 'out of control flight' ... that was ALSO my favorite A-7 moment ... especially when fighting them ... I'd just sit up high ... watching ... waiting ... watching ... waiting ... watching ... and when the 'Fruit-Fly' came out of his death spiral and straightened up -- there I was, click the mic & call:
GUNS KILL !!!!
Which makes me wonder how all those pilots that have posted here, and have told us how they screwed it up and got sat down for such "petty" stuff, weren't able to follow some basic ROE,... you know, the "easy stuff". Just follow the rules.
Wow.... what a haze that was. I'm surprised I made it through with my sanity in tact.
I was a FAIP. And at 400 hours of experience, I was a pretty good IP. At around the 700 hour mark, I was given the top IP award by the students. Did I know much about oceanic clearanes, radars, or air refueling? Nope. But I knew how to teach you to fly the T-38. And many of the IP's I worked with were excellent. Some used different techniques than I did, but their students learned. They may have taught differently, but it worked for them and their student.
Kind of like the dfferences between the AF and Navy methods.
The FAIPs I flew with as a student were excellent and taught me a bunch. The non-FAIPs were often more "fun" to fly with, but I usually did not learn as much from them... although I occasionally learned something that only their outside experience would have brought to light. Just my experience.
And all the whining about what a haze AF UPT was,... how it sucked so bad,... how it lacked the big picture. Really?? All you pilots with combat time, sea time, real world rescues,... stuff that you've done that reeks of greatness and airmanship,... then up comes the subject of AF UPT and you go fetal, suck your thumb, and decry it as a needless haze. I ain't buying it. I know how much y'all enjoy bashing the AF. Cool! Knock yourself out! It's a great sport!! But call a spade a spade.
If I come in as your IP, and tell you "I want you to do your tabletop EP this way", then I expect you to be able to remember that and try. If you fail, we will try again. And even though you don't "get it", maybe the reason I'm asking you to do it that way facilitates my goal to make you better. Wax on, wax off. It might be the difference in individual IP techniques, or in institutional techniques, e.g. AF and Navy.
I spent 7 years in the training command. 1 as a student, 3 as a FAIP, and 3 as a PIT IP. I think that they created a good product in me. And I believe that my instruction has help create other very good pilots "despite" being a USAF UPT product.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Are you saying that helo bubbas don't work as hard/get good grades/don't study? I really don't get the point of your post.did you get helos?
First, "They" are your squadron mates. They aren't looking to crucify you - until you've been in a mishap, or have been part of the AMB, you don't realize that. When an SIR comes out roasting the pilots - it's because their squadron mates/peers felt that they needed to let it be known.
Second, you won't be waiting 2 months. An SIR is due in 30 days. Usually, the extensions are filed because of EI Investigations or awaiting toxicology.
Third, an AMB isn't going to be sitting there with a stopwatch saying "he should have been able to complete his boldface/asterik in XX amount of seconds - he did it this much slower." There's WAY more they're going to be looking at. Trust me.
Fourth, you should probably confirm the existence of fire first. Every aircraft I've ever flown has mentioned that somewhere... Sounds to me that you had fast hands by doing all of that without confirming if there was a fire or not.
OK, now this question is a relatively serious question for Huggy and Hacker. I respect you guys, as well as all my boys in blue (they came through with some CAS for a TACP shoot, and I've worked with Pave Low guys in the past, and realize that a lot of the bullshit complaining about the AF is just that, BS). What in the fuck is a stud learning by not memorizing/regurgitating "BOLDFACE APPLIES, BOLDFACE IS" or detailing exactly how they're going to pull the magic black & yellow handle?? I understand the need to know memory items, but all that other crap? I still don't understand.
warface
Banned
Actually I was trying to bust his balls. Jeez, I didn't know this forum was so serious!
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
What puts you in a position to bust his balls? He's a combat vet and a jet pilot. You're a wannabe, as per your profile. Know your lane, and busting his balls isn't in it.
did you get helos?
Actually, I was fortunate to not only get my first choice of aircraft out of the Training Command, but also my first choice of duty stations!
Subsequently, I later got to fly most all – multi-engine props, 4-engine turboprops, multi-engine helos, front-line fighters, attack aircraft, and finally commercial Boeing and Airbus aircraft.
And you know what? Not only was I most fortunate to have the opportunity to fly any one of those many aircraft, there was not a one I didn't thoroughly enjoy flying!
warface
Banned
Nice! What year was that?
