The perennial Navy vs AF flight school smackdown (split from the "What %" article)

[FlyingOnFumes]

Someone once told me (USAFA grads not withstanding), that since AF officer training is not nearly as bootcamp-style intensive as Navy and Marine Corps (Navy option NROTC at civilian colleges notwithstanding) that the AF uses UPT as sort of a post-commissioning officer "boot camp" environment for its rated officers. Is this true and the reason behind what Navy guys refer to as the alleged gayness of UPT & JSUPT?

 

[HackerF15E]

How would any maritime dude have any idea if that's true or not?

The quick answer: no.

Yes, it's a haze. No, it's not to make up for some deficiency in the officer commissioning process.

 

[Pags]

And as clueless as I obviously am, I have to ask: Do you really have to verbalize "ABC,"comma", DEF, "period". "GHI", semi-colon, "JKL", comma, "MNO" period.

Because if so, I REALLY do need to study more. In my mind, knowing the EP was more important than the specific grammar and punctuation.... Guess my priorities were fucked.

I don't really give a shit how the AF does it. It works for them, and it works for the Navy/USMC studs that go there.

As for your eventual HAC boards, no - we don't do what you suggested. However, you had better damn well know why you're flipping a switch/pulling a circuit breaker/moving the flight controls in an EP, and why you're doing it in that order. If you can't explain that - then yes, you need to get in the books more.

Like Phrog said. Punctuation isn't important. But you need to know the EPs and all the NWCs as close to verbatim as possible. Because you're going to be spouting them off in front of a table of O4s and the XO. You're never going to get to the meat of the HAC board though if you blow the NATOPS questions. Needs to be 100%. If it's not, out you go, thanks for trying, see you later.

A HAC board is mainly about judgement. They do them to put you into situations that you might not have/ever have to experience in the a/c and see how you respond. You and I can't go out and see how you'd respond to a loss of TR control at the back of a single spot ship. But as a HAC, you need to know what you're going to do if you get into that situation.

If you're a dummy when you're sitting in a chair, chances are you're going to be a dummy in the air. Most people don't get smarter when their butt hits the seat. This is the parallel I was drawing between the AF standups and your HAC board. Not the AF's supposed love of correct punctuation.

On a side note, drop the defensiveness or internalize it. No one likes a ratey 2P, worse yet a PQM.

 

[phrogpilot73]

A HAC board is mainly about judgement. They do them to put you into situations that you might not have/ever have to experience in the a/c and see how you respond. You and I can't go out and see how you'd respond to a loss of TR control at the back of a single spot ship. But as a HAC, you need to know what you're going to do if you get into that situation.

+1,000

On my HAC board, you had to be able to describe systems, EPs, and baseline tactical knowledge to even GET to the proverbial "You're halfway between the ship and land and you lose an engine. What do you do?"

A good example is on my refresher 2P check in the RAG, I was briefing with a Lt who was up for his 2P check ride. The CO (who was giving us both our check) asked about losing an engine, and not being single engine capable, and of course - we were over the water. The Lt said he'd dump fuel, and that was it. The CO looked at me and said, what do you think? My response? Anything that's not bolted down is going out the back, cruise boxes, weapons, ammo, body armor, MREs, all while dumping fuel. That's the difference between what they're looking for in a 2P/PQM and a HAC.

 

[HackerF15E]

If you're a dummy when you're sitting in a chair, chances are you're going to be a dummy in the air. Most people don't get smarter when their butt hits the seat.

This.

 

[sundevil_av8r]

This.

That's understandable. But what is the reason behind not practicing EP's in the air? Is that just a UPT thing or does it continue throughout training?

 

[A4sForever]

....If you're a dummy when you're sitting in a chair, chances are you're going to be a dummy in the air. Most people don't get smarter when their butt hits the seat...

And then there's always the ol' oddball that provides the exception that breaks the rule.

In the TRACOM and RAG and early airline days I was 'smarter' in the air -- and learned more 'rapidly' in the air -- than sitting in any ground-bound chair ever created ... I just usually zoned or fell asleep in the chair.

The last 10-15 years in the airlines, while compatriots studied for 1-2 MONTHS prior to a checkride ... I never cracked a book. Seriously ... I figured I either 'knew it', or I didn't.

Of course .... I failed every checkride I took in the last 10-15 years.

 

[HackerF15E]

That's understandable. But what is the reason behind not practicing EP's in the air? Is that just a UPT thing or does it continue throughout training?

I have no idea where this rumor gets started, but there absolutely IS in-flight EP practice/evaluation in UPT (and the rest of the AF for that matter).

For some reason people get so focused on the "Stand Up", they they forget that it is simply one piece of the process, which also includes academic testing, practice EPs on simulator sorties, and practice/evaluation in flight.

Every time I hear the argument that, "the Navy practices EPs in flight, where it really matters, not on the ground" I have to laugh. Yeah, so does the AF, knucklehead.

 

[kmac]

Every time I hear the argument that, "the Navy practices EPs in flight, where it really matters, not on the ground" I have to laugh. Yeah, so does the AF, knucklehead.

Are engine losses practiced in UPT? As in, HAPLs/LAPLs?

 

[HackerF15E]

Yes. I'm not a T-6 guy, but I think the term they use is "ELP".

 

[rondebmar]

And then there's always the ol' oddball that provides the exception that breaks the rule.

In the TRACOM and RAG and early airline days I was 'smarter' in the air -- and learned more 'rapidly' in the air -- than sitting in any ground-bound chair ever created ... I just usually zoned or fell asleep in the chair.

The last 10-15 years in the airlines, while compatriots studied for 1-2 MONTHS prior to a checkride ... I never cracked a book. Seriously ... I figured I either 'knew it', or I didn't.

Of course .... I failed every checkride I took in the last 10-15 years.

Gotta agree with A4's...usually drank my way to DEN for PTs/PCs...whilst many of those around me were all stressed out, deep in their manuals...never understood it!

My last day on UAL property (09/84) prior to Medical Retirement, my boss showed me (for the first time in 16 years :icon_rage) my personnel file...including "orchid letters" from the check pilots at DEN...what BS!

 

[helolumpy]

Pardon my ignorance, but what's an 88 or 89? When I went through flight school, Joint training was when I had a Marine Capt in the back seat.

 

[C420sailor]

88 is an IPC, 89 is an FPC. Bad.

 

[nittany03]

88 ride . . . Initial Progress Check. Given after 2 consecutive UNSATs or an UNSAT checkride. Failure goes on to an FPC, passing returns to the normal training flow.

89 ride . . . Final Progress Check. Given after failure of an IPC, or at CO's discretion if potential to complete the program is in doubt. Failure results in a Training Review Board, passing returns to normal training flow.

 

[usmarinemike]

Is this thread real? Both programs produce solid pilots. They each evolved within the confines of the service culture they are from. Both programs are fundamentally sound, and you can argue the nuances until Jesus comes back. In fact, the proponents of each system are more likely to point out its flaws in better detail than its opponents. It's good to know that both programs have enough dicked up about them that there's plenty of self loathing to go around. This is some childish shit.


And what makes anybody think that any school for anything wouldn't test practical application of its emergency procedures?

And BTW...Epic Facepalm.