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The perennial Navy vs AF flight school smackdown (split from the "What %" article)

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
And then there's always the ol' oddball that provides the exception that breaks the rule.

In the TRACOM and RAG and early airline days I was 'smarter' in the air -- and learned more 'rapidly' in the air -- than sitting in any ground-bound chair ever created ... I just usually zoned or fell asleep in the chair. :)


The last 10-15 years in the airlines, while compatriots studied for 1-2 MONTHS prior to a checkride ... I never cracked a book. Seriously ... I figured I either 'knew it', or I didn't.

Of course .... I failed every checkride I took in the last 10-15 years.

I gotta agree with the old guy on this one, except on failing every checkride. Haven't busted one so far (knock on wood). Yet, I fucked away every stand up EP...literally every single one I got called out for. However, I've NEVER had a problem going into an EP sim. I prepare, chair fly, know my shit and do my best. I had/have a much better ability to feel/react and make a decision when I'm in the seat in the plane or sim than I did at attention, in front of a douchebag FAIP with all of 400 hours in an airplane. It's much easier to convince people that your decision was the right one when the plane is safe on deck in a sim, vice talking thru an EP in excruciating detail and driving the situation to a logical conclusion.

"Sir, a boldface applies. Ejection handle - pull. I will accomplish the boldface by moving my left hand from the throttle to the yellow and black ejection handle while simultaneously trimming the aircraft up and pointing towards and uninhabited area with my right hand, after which I will put my right hand on the ejection handle, tuck my elbows in, chin and neck back and down and pull up on the ejection handle." SIT DOWN, let training know you failed again...you forgot to pause for the hyphen in the boldface! (hyperbole, but similar to a few of my sit downs)

Yea...because all that bullshit was helpful in teaching me the flare sight picture, or rudder inputs during a go around, or how to actually react when the pressure is on. I don't buy that line of bullshit at all...the whole, doing it in front of your peers at attention is a good simulation of the pressure of dealing with it in the airplane. It ain't. I don't like speaking in public. I don't like standing at attention. I suffered in EPs, as a result. Review stage, or Fly 7/Sim 12 (compound EP hell) were great examples of flying with a helmet fire and working through EPs under as close to actual pressure as possible.

As far as in flight EPs at UPT..sure, we had them. They usually started with "ok, knock out these next two passes and request direct high key for an ELP" Navy in flight EP's usually start with a "vrooom" as number 1 winds down to 200# of torque and an associated fire warning light goes off at 300 feet followed by "welp, whatcha gonna do now, stud?" from the IP, or they started as smoke and fumes in the cockpit followed by shooting an NDB single engine to mins. Apples and oranges. The pain of flight school is manufactured, either way, but I'd prefer the Navy way all day having experienced the hazing in both. Air Force UPT hazing just came off as douchebaggery for the most part (why the fuck am I buying IPs I don't like beer, again? yea...fuck that)... the Navy haze seemed to have some semblance of reasoning behind it. The air force pressure was manufactured by being consistently double scheduled, 5 days a week, for 3-4 months straight. Hook the morning ride? Good thing you've got that middle period off to lick your wounds and get right back in the plane for the afternoon end of block ride/check ride. Fail that? Tough shit...better not fuck up that I-ride tomorrow morning, or you're looking at an 88 in the afternoon. Rinse and repeat.


And as far as the pissing contest, my apologies...starting one wasn't my intent. Now that we're here though...what's that saying about wrestling with a pig?
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Was never very good on the ground, in class, on a chair, or in the Sim. Never cracked books all that hard. Intended to study for check-rides, but never really did. Yet, whether I was lucky or had unusual God-given natural talent, I most always excelled in the air. But then it was in the air where I really concentrated, worked hard honing my skills, and tried to improve with each and every flight.
 

HackerF15E

Retired Strike Pig Driver
None
a douchebag FAIP with all of 400 hours in an airplane

There are plenty of spears that you can throw at FAIPs (I hate 'em, personally), but this isn't one of them.

As a student, they've got 400 more hours than *you* as PIC in this aircraft, and they've been through an instructor course to boot. The one thing they're very good at is knowing the minute ins-and-outs of whatever particular aircraft they're instructing in (where us old farts never took the time or had the desire to learn that crap in the first place). Even re-tread back-seaters and dudes with tons of civil time have much to learn from these IPs at this stage of training.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
There are plenty of spears that you can throw at FAIPs (I hate 'em, personally), but this isn't one of them.

As a student, they've got 400 more hours than *you* as PIC in this aircraft, and they've been through an instructor course to boot. The one thing they're very good at is knowing the minute ins-and-outs of whatever particular aircraft they're instructing in (where us old farts never took the time or had the desire to learn that crap in the first place). Even re-tread back-seaters and dudes with tons of civil time have much to learn from these IPs at this stage of training.


Sorry. My experiences with FAIPs left a lot to be desired...especially after flying with some of the reservists with more hours than god. Most showed their ass as far as their inexperience regularly; I didn't realize they weren't as inexperienced as they seemed to be.
 

HackerF15E

Retired Strike Pig Driver
None
Sorry. My experiences with FAIPs left a lot to be desired...especially after flying with some of the reservists with more hours than god. Most showed their ass as far as their inexperience regularly; I didn't realize they weren't as inexperienced as they seemed to be.

Well, in all reality you are right. Like I said, I hate 'em in general...although they do have some legitimate value.

Believe it or not, there is actually a lot that they do know. As I said, most are experts in the details of whatever aircraft they're teaching, and know the training syllabus inside and out. Many of them are actually very skilled at simple IFR operations (the result of craploads of weekends spent cross country), and have been to many more airports in the US than I have.

Unfortunately, the other half of this (as you pointed out) is that most haven't ever operated outside the confines of the UPT environment, and this limits the tools they have to teach. None of them have done anything "operational", and when it comes to drawing from that experience bag it's rather shallow. Nothing chaps me more than seeing techniques taught by FAIPs that were learned from other FAIPs, and have no anchor in operational reality whatsoever.

I recognize that there is value to having some FAIPs (a small minority) in a training squadron, but only so long as they're accompanied by plenty of old salty dogs who can provide that real world experience they lack.
 

81montedriver

Well-Known Member
pilot
I gotta agree with the old guy on this one, except on failing every checkride. Haven't busted one so far (knock on wood). Yet, I fucked away every stand up EP...literally every single one I got called out for. However, I've NEVER had a problem going into an EP sim. I prepare, chair fly, know my shit and do my best. I had/have a much better ability to feel/react and make a decision when I'm in the seat in the plane or sim than I did at attention, in front of a douchebag FAIP with all of 400 hours in an airplane. It's much easier to convince people that your decision was the right one when the plane is safe on deck in a sim, vice talking thru an EP in excruciating detail and driving the situation to a logical conclusion.

"Sir, a boldface applies. Ejection handle - pull. I will accomplish the boldface by moving my left hand from the throttle to the yellow and black ejection handle while simultaneously trimming the aircraft up and pointing towards and uninhabited area with my right hand, after which I will put my right hand on the ejection handle, tuck my elbows in, chin and neck back and down and pull up on the ejection handle." SIT DOWN, let training know you failed again...you forgot to pause for the hyphen in the boldface! (hyperbole, but similar to a few of my sit downs)

Yea...because all that bullshit was helpful in teaching me the flare sight picture, or rudder inputs during a go around, or how to actually react when the pressure is on. I don't buy that line of bullshit at all...the whole, doing it in front of your peers at attention is a good simulation of the pressure of dealing with it in the airplane. It ain't. I don't like speaking in public. I don't like standing at attention. I suffered in EPs, as a result. Review stage, or Fly 7/Sim 12 (compound EP hell) were great examples of flying with a helmet fire and working through EPs under as close to actual pressure as possible.

As far as in flight EPs at UPT..sure, we had them. They usually started with "ok, knock out these next two passes and request direct high key for an ELP" Navy in flight EP's usually start with a "vrooom" as number 1 winds down to 200# of torque and an associated fire warning light goes off at 300 feet followed by "welp, whatcha gonna do now, stud?" from the IP, or they started as smoke and fumes in the cockpit followed by shooting an NDB single engine to mins. Apples and oranges. The pain of flight school is manufactured, either way, but I'd prefer the Navy way all day having experienced the hazing in both. Air Force UPT hazing just came off as douchebaggery for the most part (why the fuck am I buying IPs I don't like beer, again? yea...fuck that)... the Navy haze seemed to have some semblance of reasoning behind it. The air force pressure was manufactured by being consistently double scheduled, 5 days a week, for 3-4 months straight. Hook the morning ride? Good thing you've got that middle period off to lick your wounds and get right back in the plane for the afternoon end of block ride/check ride. Fail that? Tough shit...better not fuck up that I-ride tomorrow morning, or you're looking at an 88 in the afternoon. Rinse and repeat.


And as far as the pissing contest, my apologies...starting one wasn't my intent. Now that we're here though...what's that saying about wrestling with a pig?


I got an EP in stand up one morning where the correct answer was EJECTION HANDLE- PULL. I went through in great detail like was mentioned above about the proper procedures for pulling the handle, and preparing the airplane for such mentioned EP. For a split second I felt extremely proud of myself because I remembered all of the procedures. Next thing I heard : SIT DOWN. I come to find out I had failed the stand up because I never said "BOLDFACE APPLIES, BOLDFACE IS" before saying EJECTION HANDLE- PULL. Not quite sure if the airplane would fail me for not saying that though.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
I got an EP in stand up one morning where the correct answer was EJECTION HANDLE- PULL. I went through in great detail like was mentioned above about the proper procedures for pulling the handle, and preparing the airplane for such mentioned EP. For a split second I felt extremely proud of myself because I remembered all of the procedures. Next thing I heard : SIT DOWN. I come to find out I had failed the stand up because I never said "BOLDFACE APPLIES, BOLDFACE IS" before saying EJECTION HANDLE- PULL. Not quite sure if the airplane would fail me for not saying that though.


Exactly the same here. That day was the low (or would it be high) point in my short UPT career as far as loathing our brothers in light blue.
 

eddie

Working Plan B
Contributor
"BOLDFACE APPLIES, BOLDFACE IS" before saying EJECTION HANDLE- PULL. Not quite sure if the airplane would fail me for not saying that though.

Maybe it really would be fair to say that UPT has some OCS (TBS?) -like qualities? Those phrases have nothing to do with the procedure at hand per se, but the mentality behind being a stickler on details has a purpose (even after earning your bars)?
 

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
Maybe it really would be fair to say that UPT has some OCS (TBS?) -like qualities? Those phrases have nothing to do with the procedure at hand per se, but the mentality behind being a stickler on details has a purpose (even after earning your bars)?

I don't recall anything even close to that at TBS.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
It's possible (and desirable) to have 'attention to detail' and still be able to separate the wheat from the chaff .... to be able to cull what's 'important' from the rest of the bullshit.

Judgment is what you bring to the table ... it's tempered and focused by the experience you gain over the months & years. Throw in a mild dash of native-born discernment, and you're almost home ...

Flying IS a skill game ... but it's also a 'head' game. :)
 

Pugs

Back from the range
None
I got an EP in stand up one morning where the correct answer was EJECTION HANDLE- PULL. I went through in great detail like was mentioned above about the proper procedures for pulling the handle, and preparing the airplane for such mentioned EP. For a split second I felt extremely proud of myself because I remembered all of the procedures. Next thing I heard : SIT DOWN. I come to find out I had failed the stand up because I never said "BOLDFACE APPLIES, BOLDFACE IS" before saying EJECTION HANDLE- PULL. Not quite sure if the airplane would fail me for not saying that though.

Amazing. Now, I'll have to admit I'm getting to be an old guy but what is the benefit in what appears to be some sort of stand up in front of your peers and recite a verbatim EP vice doing in the brief with the IP with the EP of the day or boldface of his his choice? Seems to be a bit of a harassment package and not much of a learning tool which is the point isn't it?

Bet writing IFIP for If Fire Indications Positive in a written exam is frowned upon these days too. :(
 

armada1651

Hey intern, get me a Campari!
pilot
did you get helos? :)

You're probably not in a place to be taking shots at helo guys OR combat-veteran jet guys. I know you don't mean any harm, just saying...those of us who haven't earned much around here - Wings of Gold, that is - tread lightly.
 

JustAGuy

Registered User
pilot
In the TRACOM and RAG and early airline days I was 'smarter' in the air -- and learned more 'rapidly' in the air -- than sitting in any ground-bound chair ever created ... I just usually zoned or fell asleep in the chair. :)

Concur whole heartily.

I failed an EP sim early on in training because I couldn't correctly remember the name of the switch in a procedure. What I said was something along the amount of detail as "It's the t-shaped switch with 2 bumps on the top just behind the volume knob and about halfway down my left thigh." Sim instructor flips his lid and is yelling that if you can't remember the physical name of the switch how will you know which one to flip when you actually have to do it in an emergency.
 
So will we at least be given a template of exactly how these standup EPs are supposed to be recited? Obviously the boldface is verbatim, but all that superfluous stuff seems very specific. I ask cause I'll be there (Vance) very soon.
 
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