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The Great Universal Health Care Debate w/Poll (note: it just passed both houses)

Are you in favor of Universal Health Care?


  • Total voters
    221

Whalebite

Registered User
Imagine the much higher cost of regulating prescription drugs. No one will be willing to make them in the future. A very small percentage of drugs make it to the market. Who's going to pay for the ones that failed to make it?

I would support a system of military healthcare for all.
Ooooooo there’s a catch. You have to meet strict health requirements before you join, must have extensive medical tests, (must already be healthy, young, and be willing to risk your life) You must be willing to follow orders you don’t like, must exercise (Marines at least) when you don’t feel like it, run in the rain, and snow. If you get fat and nasty, you have to get on BCP, and if you don’t improve you are kicked out (again Marines at least) And yes, if you make it through 20 years of this, you get a break with a nations gratitude.
(but methinks not many fit the qualifications)




None. Thats taken into account. but thanks for trying. That type of surgery is not considered "health care" and is therefore not included in the statistic. Much of the difference comes from the enormous prices that we pay for prescriptions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared
 

ChunksJR

Retired.
pilot
Contributor
So does anyone care to tell me how Tricare is not a state supported health care system?

I think it's interesting that many of you who are arguing about how to not go to socialized health care are actually part of a social health care provider (granted they provide for the military, retirees and dependents, but that's more than a few million people).

Because I CHOSE to be in the military. So, by definition, I CHOSE my health care...and I would go on to argue, EARN that care...Socialism would give me something for doing nothing.

~D
 

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
Because I CHOSE to be in the military. So, by definition, I CHOSE my health care...and I would go on to argue, EARN that care...Socialism would give me something for doing nothing.

~D


I agree. I am not for socialized health care. I have no problem paying my $134 dollars a month to Anthem Blue Cross/Blue Shield so that in case I get hurt or sick I'm covered. The government should not provide me health insurance. It isn't the job of the government to bail me out when I get sick. I would rather have a choice as to where my money goes to for health care. Just like I disagree with the welfare system that exists now. I have stood in line too many times behind the fat girl with 4 kids who is buying food with WIC and food stamps, but then pulls out a $100 bill and buys 4 cartons of cigarettes and a case of beer.
 

Tactical387

New Member
Imagine the much higher cost of regulating prescription drugs. No one will be willing to make them in the future. A very small percentage of drugs make it to the market. Who's going to pay for the ones that failed to make it?

If thats true tell me why Europe enjoys 35-55 percent cheaper prescriptions than the United States
 

Tactical387

New Member
The WHO publishes information on health care procedures and expenses. I gave the website earlier but here it is again.

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre/press_release/en/

but the european drug article is by the new england medical journal. here
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/351/14/1375


Also, some of you seem to be wondering about cosmetic surgeries in other industrialized countries. Much like under our health care system, they are not covered. They are done outside of hospitals by private doctors and are often regulated by organizations similar to our FDA. heres a link

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/iyh-vsv/med/implants_e.html

Im not sure how much is subsidized but I don't think its an unreasonable amount. I believe that the difference in this price is the exploitation of the US drug market - patients are happy paying that much because they have no other alternative. Europeans simply will not pay as much as we will.
This article addresses the issue and is interesting.
http://dcc2.bumc.bu.edu/hs/pdfs/Lower%20drug%20prices.pdf
 

Whalebite

Registered User
Exactly, the rest of the paragraph explains:


Prices for brand-name prescription drugs are 35 to 55 percent lower in other industrialized countries than in the United States.2 The central reason for these price differentials is that Canada and most European countries (13 of the 15 countries in Western Europe) directly regulate the prices of prescription drugs. High U.S. prices are said to be necessary to cover the costs of research and development for new and better drugs, given the price levels in Europe and Canada. Americans are increasingly asking why they should subsidize the development of new drugs that are also used by Canadians and Europeans.





The WHO publishes information on health care procedures and expenses. I gave the website earlier but here it is again.

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre/press_release/en/

but the european drug article is by the new england medical journal. here
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/351/14/1375


Also, some of you seem to be wondering about cosmetic surgeries in other industrialized countries. Much like under our health care system, they are not covered. They are done outside of hospitals by private doctors and are often regulated by organizations similar to our FDA. heres a link

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/iyh-vsv/med/implants_e.html
 

Tactical387

New Member
Exactly, the rest of the paragraph explains:


Prices for brand-name prescription drugs are 35 to 55 percent lower in other industrialized countries than in the United States.2 The central reason for these price differentials is that Canada and most European countries (13 of the 15 countries in Western Europe) directly regulate the prices of prescription drugs. High U.S. prices are said to be necessary to cover the costs of research and development for new and better drugs, given the price levels in Europe and Canada. Americans are increasingly asking why they should subsidize the development of new drugs that are also used by Canadians and Europeans.

Exactly...why should we have to pay the difference. The United States makes up about half of the income of major drug companies. If you dont believe that the United States government is intentionally increasing the prices of drugs, why did so many congressmen and senators leave their previous positions to work for major drug companies after Bush's new medicare act? -- because it gave the drug companies a huge bump in profit.

This thread is interesting and Im glad to see that it has stayed an academic discussion without getting childish and heated. However, I am probably going to stay away from this thread from now on simply because it is agonizing to bang my head against the metaphorical wall that is politics. Hope everyone has a great holiday and educate yourself thoroughly before the next election. Remember, it is your well-being at stake. Here is a website of all the candidates and their respective platforms. http://www.ontheissues.org/default.htm
 

flysupertomcat

Jim told me I can buy Gaydar online
I wouldn't mind universal health care because being without health insurance sucks at times. My dad lost his job in 02' and I have been without health insurance ever since. He doesn't get benefits from his current job, and I haven't been able to get a job that will give me benefits while I've been in college. Thank God I haven't had to go to the Dr. for anything major since then, but I did have to pay $180 for a Dr. to look at my sprained ankle for all of 10 min. which sucked. So I don't know exactly how universal HC works, I don't think the Gov't should foot the whole bill but make it more affordable? yes, please.
 

Herc_Dude

I believe nicotine + caffeine = protein
pilot
Contributor
I wouldn't mind universal health care because being without health insurance sucks at times. My dad lost his job in 02' and I have been without health insurance ever since. He doesn't get benefits from his current job, and I haven't been able to get a job that will give me benefits while I've been in college. Thank God I haven't had to go to the Dr. for anything major since then, but I did have to pay $180 for a Dr. to look at my sprained ankle for all of 10 min. which sucked. So I don't know exactly how universal HC works, I don't think the Gov't should foot the whole bill but make it more affordable yes, please.

Don't fool yourself, its not the government paying the bill, its me, its CWJones, its your dad ... see what I'm getting at?

This thread is very intriguing, I almost forgot just how idealistic college can be.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
I actually linked the wrong page in my post on the first page, so here is the correct one:

http://www.amsa.org/uhc/

Now to address some common themes in this thread that the above link covers much more in depth:
-The U.S. is not going to turn into communist Russia if we adopt a single-payer healthcare system.
-A single-payer system will still allow you to choose your doctor. Insurance companies are already restrict your choice of doctors, so this really isn't any different.
-A single-payer system is not socialist medicine. Doctors will still be private workers who own their own practices.
-The practical argument for a single-payer system has little to do with whether or not the government owes it to the people to do so (although you could try to make that argument).
-A single-payer healthcare system can be implemented in a way that fixes the flaws in other socialistic medical systems (ie you can have a single payer system that provides primary healthcare, then the option to purchase additional supplemental health care for stuff like hip replacements).
-A single-payer system isn't about providing healthcare to those who don't work to "leech" off our society (our unemployment is at what, 7-9% atm?). That means over 90% of people work. No one is leeching off of anyone here.
-(including this because I saw a post about it) Germany may be a democracy, but German citizens have very little freedom compared to Americans.

Here's the deal: most of you guys here are in the military (aren't I a quick one heh), while I'm still aspiring to be, so you don't have to worry nearly as much about your medical coverage as the average person. Government worker healthcare coverage is much more comprehensive than most private company coverage, and covers you if you get hurt and beyond retirement. You might say that you deserve coverage for life after doing a dangerous job for 20 years, but why doesn't a person deserve that coverage for doing a job for a private company for 40?

Most people get healthcare through their employers anyway. But when someone proposes a coherent plan to consolidate that into a more efficient, cheaper system, we get thrown back into the Red Scare of the 1920s.

Our current medical system is bogged down in inefficient beurocracy. Doctors have to bill insurance companies 3-4x the amount they expect to get paid, just so that they can argue with insurance companies and ultimately get paid the right amount. Do you really think insurance companies pays the doc $500 for a yearly, routine physical of like he writes down on the paper? That process is wasteful, and drives up the cost of healthcare.

Then there's the issue of insurance companies arguing with the actual beneficiaries if something is actually covered or lot. Alternatively, they can delay payment, and in the interim the insured is responsible for the bill. Talk to any doctor or lawyer about what they think about how insurance companies operate. The high cost of healthcare in the U.S. isn't because we have such cutting edge technology or that we're so superior -- it's because insurance companies have us by the balls, and they know it.

Healthcare plans are optional? I don't think most people make enough money to pay out-of-pocket for their family's health care.

Someone mentioned that our prescription drug costs are so high due to research. Ha! Drug companies spend about 15-20% of their gross income on R&D. Oh, and get this: much of R&D is covered by government funding. Over 60% of pharmaceutical gross goes into ADVERTISING. You think those commercials for prescription drugs, which you can't even buy, are cheap? Did you know that pharmacy companies pay sales reps 6 figures to go from hospital to hospital and give docs goody bags along with free samples of their drugs (this annoyed most doctors I worked with in my time in an ER, simply because they didn't have the time to listen to someone's bs). That's what you're paying for when you go to the counter.

A single-payer system isn't about turning our healthcare into Canada's or Germany's. It's about reforming the asinine system that we have now where we essentially have socialistic healthcare, but the "taxes" are just paid to insurance giants whose CEOs bring home over $2 million a year net income (owner of State Farm).

The alternative is to look at health care as a business, and like any other business, they are entitled to make a profit. The thing is, their product (your well-being) has almost infinite value.

I strongly suggest you guys read the link. If you still think that a single payer system is the way to go, then fine. However, you still must acknowledge that there are serious flaws in our system that must be addressed.
 

Hozer

Jobu needs a refill!
None
Contributor
Here's the deal: most of you guys here are in the military (aren't I a quick one heh), while I'm still aspiring to be, so you don't have to worry about a darn thing when it comes to healthcare. You go to the doctor, doctor sends them the bill, it gets paid. Well, military personnel makes up what, 5% of the population? For the vast majority of people working in the private sector, which is where I'm working now, it's not so easy. A single-payer system aims to make it that easy.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You are making wrong assertions about the military health insurance system.
 
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