The Great Universal Health Care Debate w/Poll (note: it just passed both houses)

[Spekkio]

It actually works quite well, my Mother-in-law (Vancouver, BC) got faster and better care than my mother (New York) for a bad foot injury. No waiting in line or a 5 month wait for surgery, it happened the next day. My mother had to get transferred and had to wait 5 days.

Almost every other experience my in-laws have had with the health care system in Canada has been a good one, much better than what my wife has had down here, with the military and civilian health care systems. Yes, they do pay more in taxes but with what I pay in insurance every month, co-pays, etc, it comes pretty close to what they pay in Canada.

And one more thing to point out, Canada's health care system is not run by the federal government, each province or territory is responsible for administering it and paying a large part of it. As a result, richer provinces like Alberta (oil) and British Columbia (timber/trade) have better systems than poorer ones like the Maritimes on the east coast. The federal government still has a hand in setting policy and doling out some money, but it is largely up to the provinces and some do a very good job.

I always thought that the argument that people will have to wait weeks for health care in a single-payer system was a bit off (too extreme to be completely true), but having no experience with Canadian health, I don't know.

"of the 47 million uninsured, perhaps 10M are illegal immigrants. of the others, many will be younger people who simply choose not to have insurance. others are only uninsured temporarily." so that apparently leaves a considerable amount less that are truly uninsured.

If you're uninsured, you're uninsured. You can include me in that group -- since I got laid off at my previous job this past summer, I have been without insurance. I do not yet qualify for my current company's plan since I've only been there a few months (hopefully the Navy picks me up before I would qualify), and paying like $200-300 a month just isn't worth it. At 24 years old, I'm not too worried about the expensive stuff like cancer or delivering a pre-mature baby, and my monthly premium would cover a doctor's visit.

i guess i think our healthcare system, as far as private health insurers, works pretty well actually, considering the complexity and breadth of the situation. in my personal (but limited experience), i feel my experience with healthcare hasn't been bad at all. furthermore, i have several relatives in the healthcare industry and none of them are very sure of UHC...

It works pretty well in that we have a ton of people paying a middle man a lot of money to afford something that ideally should be able to be afforded directly most of the time. Those who don't pay the middle man don't get the care. This wouldn't necessarily be bad, except the middle man is wisening up as to how much money he can make by charging us obscene fees for something that we value so dearly.

and while i agree with a previous post that the DMV does get the job done... no one can argue with the massive amounts of redtape and bureaucracy. sure it is bad when you have to wait in line for your tags, but as another person mentioned, it is truly horrible when you wait in an emergency room for 2 hours with a broken bone. do we really want the government to take over yet another portion of free enterprise? economists and theorists have shown the government intervention is usually bad for business...and worse for people.

Waiting 2 hours for the ER doc to see your broken bone (and that's actually quite fast) has nothing to do with insurance or government health care payment. It has to do with the fact that a broken bone is considered a minor injury, and the wait limit is 24 hours. While a broken bone certainly results in excrutiating pain, it can't kill you. The 60 year old guy with a stomach ache is going ahead of you.

The fastest way to get a broken bone treated is usually to get to your primary physician, who will then write you a referral for the local orthopedist.

Maryland is losing Doctors. Recently my primary care Doc opted out of all insurance programs. Will treat you, but you gotta pay up front and then you fight the Insurance companies/FedGov(MC) on your own. (He is best in business, can get away with it). Decision time again, so soon?

Insurance company greed affects doctors as well as patients.

 

[raptor10]

Here's a great article to educate those of us (namely me) who haven't spent a good deal of time on the issue.

http://tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=51faeaa7-5021-40d0-95d3-0f260b25edd4

 

[ChunksJR]

Here's a great article to educate those of us (namely me) who haven't spent a good deal of time on the issue.

http://tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=51faeaa7-5021-40d0-95d3-0f260b25edd4

Not a big fan of "New Republic" due to it's mostly left stance.

It calls the "FairTax" a conservative idea...bull$hit. It's a GOOD idea.

~D

 

[Hozer]

Like someone pointed out before, a premature baby will run into the millions of dollars very easily with all of the specialized care needed. Same for trauma care and the rehabilitation needed for many former trauma patients.

One of the great quandaries of many of our greatest medical advances is that it adds billions in costs to our health care system. It was only a little over 40 years ago that trauma care started and even more recent that we could keep a baby alive that was born at six or seven months. It is great that these advances have happened, but who is to pay for them? I can't, can you?

A close friend had her baby operated on when he was 12 hours old. The bill was in the hundreds of thousands. They arranged financing with the physicians and the hospital directly. Now, it's going to take a while and they are working class folks, but it's working out.
The problem is costs are so inflated because of the entrenched bureaucracy, malpractice insurance, etc, that it is difficult to know just how much a procedure really costs.
I don't pretend that health care isn't expensive and wouldn't be under certain situations in a pay-as-you-go system.
But what you advocate is shifting the burden to others.

 

[FLYTPAY]

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Insurance/KnowYourRights/EmployersGrabAccidentVictimsCash.aspx

Wal-Mart sues ex-employee over health care costs because she won settlement. Wal-Mart wins suit and ex-employee now on Medicaid......WE ARE PAYING FOR IT!

 

[ChunksJR]

http://http://articles.moneycentral...rRights/EmployersGrabAccidentVictimsCash.aspx

Wal-Mart sues ex-employee over health care costs because she won settlement. Wal-Mart wins suit and ex-employee now on Medicaid......WE ARE PAYING FOR IT!

"The reason is a clause in Wal-Mart's health plan that Deborah Shank didn't notice when she started stocking shelves at a nearby store eight years ago. Like most company health plans, Wal-Mart's reserves the right to recoup the medical expenses it paid for someone's treatment if the person also collects damages in an injury suit."

That's because she STUPIDLY made the decision NOT to read HER POLICY.

It's her own damn fault. ACCEPT RESPONSIBILTY FOR YOUR OWN DAMN ACTIONS!

 

[Son of a Grunt]

People keep saying "the government pays for this" and "the government will pay for that". Idiots, its not the governments money its our money. The government only has what it takes from us.

 

[Son of a Grunt]

Seriously, put down the Kool Aid! Canada, the UK, France, Japan, Australia, Germany and a lot of other places that have universal health care are not communist by any stretch of the imagination.

Ever herd of the Berlin Wall?! Notice that I said, "are (or on the road to being) communist". If you tell me that Canada, the UK, France, Japan, Australia, and the U.S. are not slowly creeping toward communism then you are blind. If you say that UHC is not a part of socialism/communism then you are a fool, because by definition UHC is a socialist program.

 

[Huggy Bear]

A close friend had her baby operated on when he was 12 hours old. The bill was in the hundreds of thousands. They arranged financing with the physicians and the hospital directly. Now, it's going to take a while and they are working class folks, but it's working out.
The problem is costs are so inflated because of the entrenched bureaucracy, malpractice insurance, etc, that it is difficult to know just how much a procedure really costs.I don't pretend that health care isn't expensive and wouldn't be under certain situations in a pay-as-you-go system.
But what you advocate is shifting the burden to others.

That's a good point that I was going to bring up. If we put aside universal health care for the moment, I think fixing our legal system would be a huge step in the right direction. Part of the reason our health care costs are so large are due to seedy lawyers, frivilous lawsuits and unrealisticaly large payouts. I can't tell you how many billboards I see for cheesy injury lawyers (often in spanish out here in CA). There is a looming doctor shortage just as we have seen a nursing shortage for the past decade. In Florida there is an OB doctor shortage- something like 40% of their gross goes to paying malpractice insurance.

As an answer to another posters request for tricare experiences:
I recently had a surgery that was in the neighborhood of $7000, tricare only paid the doctor's office $2000 and change. The 2K is probably more realistic compensation since most of the bill is probably inflated to pay for malpractice insurance and other fluff. That's all fine and dandy until that doctor, who happens to currently be the only one of his type in that area, decides to drop tri-care because of their low pay outs. BTW, the base doesn't have a doc of his type on board.

 

[Huggy Bear]

People keep saying "the government pays for this" and "the government will pay for that". Idiots, its not the governments money its our money. The government only has what it takes from us.

Ever herd of the Berlin Wall?! Notice that I said, "are (or on the road to being) communist". If you tell me that Canada, the UK, France, Japan, Australia, and the U.S. are not slowly creeping toward communism then you are blind. If you say that UHC is not a part of socialism/communism then you are a fool, because by definition UHC is a socialist program.

Pretty lippy to be calling those you aspire to join "idiots", and "fools". I'd cool it junior.

 

[Son of a Grunt]

I said what I said.

 

[Hozer]

That's a good point that I was going to bring up. If we put aside universal health care for the moment, I think fixing our legal system would be a huge step in the right direction. Part of the reason our health care costs are so large are due to seedy lawyers, frivilous lawsuits and unrealisticaly large payouts. I can't tell you how many billboards I see for cheesy injury lawyers (often in spanish out here in CA). There is a looming doctor shortage just as we have seen a nursing shortage for the past decade. In Florida there is an OB doctor shortage- something like 40% of their gross goes to paying malpractice insurance.

My wife's OB, also a family friend, is facing/has faced exactly what you describe here in Florida. He has delivered thousands of babies, yet he is constantly saddled with colossal overhead, and his insurance is more than 40% of his gross. His staff spends far more time haggling with HMO's than dealing with patients. But that's another thread...

 

[Harrier Dude]

uninsured....and paying like $200-300 a month just isn't worth it. At 24 years old, I'm not too worried about the expensive stuff like cancer or delivering a pre-mature baby, and my monthly premium would cover a doctor's visit..

OK. YOU are making a CHOICE. It's a free country (in theory), so do what you want with regards to your own healthcare planning.

Do NOT expect me to pay for whatever calamity and/or unexpected severe illness you get (God forbid) between now and the time you get insurance.

 

[QuagmireMcGuire]

People keep saying "the government pays for this" and "the government will pay for that". Idiots, its not the governments money its our money. The government only has what it takes from us.

In time, you'll come to understand that simply because an individual possesses a different opine from your own does not mean that they are an idiot or possess less intelligence than yourself. It may take some years for you to realize this, it certainly took me some time and it seems others continue to struggle with this. We can disagree, debate, and keep it civil.

Now, you are correct that the government administers the money that we pay but it is our contribution in maintaining a functioning society. Someone has to pay for those roads, those sidewalks, those ferries, and someone has to sign those public contracts so that we may utilize the essentials. It is called reciprocity.

Many of you have based your arguments upon the concept of freedom of choice. Freedom is not free. Our freedom has always came attached with a price whether that price has been paid through the sweat, blood, and money of few and many.

Over a hundred years ago, America decided that freedom was an inherent human right. We denounced the owning of an individual and decreed that it was immoral to deny the freedom of our fellow man. It was determined that each life possessed a precious value that could never be fully appreciated through dollars and cents. We still maintain this battle every time we encounter a wrongful death suit; what is the value of a human being? By saying that since this or that person has not contributed this much to our society, we have definitively placed value upon a life; we have determined that they are unworthy of something so basic and essential as having access to health care.

Our freedom is paid through our contributions to society. Our citizenship is a contract; the government offers its services and its protections and we pay consideration through our taxes and societal obligations. Most of us adhere to laws even if we personally disapprove of them; in essence, we don't have much choice in paying taxes. You are free to choose not to but be prepared to face the consequences. Each individual is free and we possess many freedoms but what distinguishes these freedoms is that they are inherent rights that we possess as human beings. Your individual free choice shall always be eclipsed by these human rights.

 

[ChunksJR]

Many of you have based your arguments upon the concept of freedom of choice. Freedom is not free. Our freedom has always came attached with a price whether that price has been paid through the sweat, blood, and money of few and many.

You came to the right board to tell that to.

Over a hundred years ago, America decided that freedom was an inherent human right. ... we have determined that they are unworthy of something so basic and essential as having access to health care.

Because the Gov't didn't pay more for those who live unhealthier than others they took away their freedom???? I think we can both agree that if you fvck away your own decisions, how could it remain MY freedom to pay more for your REHAB/OD/Liver Replacement/Lung Cancer/Gastric Bypass/Drunk Driving Accident...MANY Americans already abuse their own freedom...what would happen if CONSEQUENCES of DESTRUCTIVE DECISIONS were paid for as well?!!?

Our freedom is paid through our contributions to society. Our citizenship is a contract; the government offers its services and its protections and we pay consideration through our taxes and societal obligations. Most of us adhere to laws even if we personally disapprove of them; in essence, we don't have much choice in paying taxes.

So, Answer this one: Would you support a draft??? Living where you live, I doubt it. But that precious freedom you're arguing for has been given to you by a draft...you benefit(ed) from military service, so I guess by your reasoning you better give your time to that same military service...

And it should be your own decisions what you recieve and what you give to society. Because I'm not poor, should I be forced to give to the poor that only ENCOURAGES them to remain poor? I don't feel that welfare is a significant enough portion of our GNP to actually argue over it, but I DO feel it's BULL$HIT.

You are free to choose not to but be prepared to face the consequences.

And as mentioned above, your destructive lifestyle should result in YOUR medical bills that YOU pay for, not me paying for them.

Your individual free choice shall always be eclipsed by these human rights.

So, if your local mayor sees you spank your kid and decides you're not a fit mother, does that give them the right to decide that you are not a good parent and take them from you? Socialism begins with deciding that your individual rights (such as to punish your child in your own manner) are eclipsed by what is right in society's opinion.