The Great Universal Health Care Debate w/Poll (note: it just passed both houses)

[Hozer]

Our current medical system is bogged down in inefficient beurocracy. Doctors have to bill insurance companies 3-4x the amount they expect to get paid, just so that they can argue with insurance companies and ultimately get paid the right amount. Do you really think insurance companies pays the doc $500 for a yearly, routine physical of like he writes down on the paper? That process is wasteful, and drives up the cost of healthcare.

and you really really think gov't run healthcare will just evaporate that bureaucracy?

you made my case for PAY AS YOU GO.

 

[Spekkio]

Care to expand on how I'm making wrongful assertions? My father works as a sheriff for the county, and it works pretty much like that. Hell, in my time working for the town people were covered like that. I know quite a few military guys, and I haven't heard them ever complain about their health care coverage. From what I've seen, the government tends to take care of its workers. Is there something I'm missing?

EDIT: As I said in my closing paragraph: even if you think that a single-payer system is not the best way to go, you'd have to at least recognize that our current system is broken in a lot of places.

 

[Hozer]

No. I'm too tired to do your research.
There are different flavors of military health insurance.
TriCare Prime, Standard, etc. There is/are doctor/facility choice (depending on geo location), deductibles, and copays.
Each variant requires thorough research by individuals to see what fits their needs or desires versus expected usage.

 

[Hozer]

EDIT: As I said in my closing paragraph: even if you think that a single-payer system is not the best way to go, you'd have to at least recognize that our current system is broken in a lot of places.

Agreed, but creating another bureaucracy to replace a malfunctioning one is not the answer. It is idealistic buffoonery.

 

[Spekkio]

Well, if people actually got together and ironed out a good plan, we'd be in good shape. Personally, I think a single-payer system should be handled by a private company given a government contract which must be renewed every 5 years or so (judging by the fact that it's taking me over 6 months to apply for Navy OCS due to paperwork slowness when it really ought to only take 2 makes me uneasy about how the government would handle healthcare). Unfortunately, there is just too much money involved with our current health care business that just makes a good, working solution impossible.

EDIT: I did not mean to imply that there were no copays or deductibles in government worker insurance plans. It is, after all, ultimately a private insurance company that you deal with. I simply meant that the plans provided are often much more comprehensive than the average person gets working for Company X, and the out of pocket expense is lower. You're also covered for life after retirement, which most companies don't offer. If you needed knee surgeory tomorrow, for whatever reason, you'd have a much easier time with your insurance company than most. That's all.

The flip side, as someone pointed out, is that military jobs are much more dangerous, so you could argue that they deserve it.

 

[Hozer]

(judging by the fact that it's taking me over 6 months to apply for Navy OCS due to paperwork slowness when it really ought to only take 2 makes me uneasy about how the government would handle healthcare).

you have no idea. Just google "lawsuits NAS Jacksonville hospital". for what it's worth, I personally know great physicians there, but it's a glimpse of gov't care.

I'm out of gas. Charlie time.

 

[Swanee]

I think there is a more simple reason as to why we don't go to a UHS.

Simply put, if we go to a UHS, everyone who works for a health insurance company will be without a job. An entire industry (and all the jobs that go with it) will be eliminated. That's not going to happen.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Now wait. If you get on a motorcycle and don't wear full protective gear many insurance companies won't pay.

Just so you're aware for your example, most insurance companies won't pay if you're not wearing the gear required IN THAT STATE. So, here in Florida I can ride around on my motorcycle without my helmet all day long, which some people may say is stupid, but it's legal, so insurance will cover it. If I ride on over to Alabama and still don't wear the helmet, then get nailed by a truck, insurance doesn't have to pay.

 

[Spekkio]

I think there is a more simple reason as to why we don't go to a UHS.

Simply put, if we go to a UHS, everyone who works for a health insurance company will be without a job. An entire industry (and all the jobs that go with it) will be eliminated. That's not going to happen.

Not necessarily everyone. Many health insurance companies offer more than just health insurance. However, a lot of people would be out of a job, along with people from every aspect of healthcare.

Like I said, there is too much at stake in the healthcare business for any meaningful changes to take place. Hell, the ideal scenario is that I would be able to afford healthcare beyond the occassional doctor's visit and anti-biotics without paying a middle man two thousand dollars a year.

 

[eddie]

Simply put, if we go to a UHS, everyone who works for a health insurance company will be without a job. An entire industry (and all the jobs that go with it) will be eliminated. That's not going to happen.

Supposing it were a better system we'd be switching to, saving jobs is a terrible reason NOT to do it.

you made my case for PAY AS YOU GO.

What exactly do you mean by this? I was born very prematurely (no, not crack baby ), and cost odd millions to deliver and work up to stability. Are you suggesting that my parents (who were very much covered) should have paid that to get me home, or are you simply suggesting that if we did things that way it would all be much cheaper anyways? And don't worry, if your answer is, "your parents couldn't afford you, you should have died," I won't be offended in the slightest.

 

[Flash]

We don't have socialized medicine for a bloody reason! UHC is just another step toward a socialized/communist government. Russia, China, Korea, Vietnam, and many other countries that have UHC are (or on the road to being) communist. Does communism/socialism work? No! Look at the Pilgrims they had a socialized government at first and within two years they had to scratch it, because it didn't work. No one wanted to work hard when they knew that their labor was just as much for a lazy bum as it was for them. Russia: Joseph Stalin's plans for communism worked great(NOT); the great Soviet Union is now a pile of rotting crap (trust me I have had to live with 2 people from Russia for 2 months :icon_rage). Red China: what more do I need to say. Germany: how many millions have died from Hitler's brand of communism, Nazism? Venezuela: would you really want some like Hugo Chavez (i.e. Hilary Clinton) to run this country. Communism and Socialism don't work; they never have and never will. If you don't believe me then read history. Why on earth would you want to use a system that has caused/is causing the down fall of many nations?

Seriously, put down the Kool Aid! Canada, the UK, France, Japan, Australia, Germany and a lot of other places that have universal health care are not communist by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Flash]

Fuck no. Go up to Canada and get injured there. See how well Universal Health care works.

It actually works quite well, my Mother-in-law (Vancouver, BC) got faster and better care than my mother (New York) for a bad foot injury. No waiting in line or a 5 month wait for surgery, it happened the next day. My mother had to get transferred and had to wait 5 days.

Almost every other experience my in-laws have had with the health care system in Canada has been a good one, much better than what my wife has had down here, with the military and civilian health care systems. Yes, they do pay more in taxes but with what I pay in insurance every month, co-pays, etc, it comes pretty close to what they pay in Canada.

And one more thing to point out, Canada's health care system is not run by the federal government, each province or territory is responsible for administering it and paying a large part of it. As a result, richer provinces like Alberta (oil) and British Columbia (timber/trade) have better systems than poorer ones like the Maritimes on the east coast. The federal government still has a hand in setting policy and doling out some money, but it is largely up to the provinces and some do a very good job.

 

[Flash]

The solution? Pay as you go. No HMO's. Yes, it would be a painful adjustment. But the market would adjust prices accordingly. How many people are involved in the medical billing and insurance industry? What if you, shudder to think it, paid at the doctor's office?

Like someone pointed out before, a premature baby will run into the millions of dollars very easily with all of the specialized care needed. Same for trauma care and the rehabilitation needed for many former trauma patients.

One of the great quandaries of many of our greatest medical advances is that it adds billions in costs to our health care system. It was only a little over 40 years ago that trauma care started and even more recent that we could keep a baby alive that was born at six or seven months. It is great that these advances have happened, but who is to pay for them? I can't, can you?

 

[incubus852]

from the economist, considered by most to be unbiased and accurate...

"of the 47 million uninsured, perhaps 10M are illegal immigrants. of the others, many will be younger people who simply choose not to have insurance. others are only uninsured temporarily." so that apparently leaves a considerable amount less that are truly uninsured.

i guess i think our healthcare system, as far as private health insurers, works pretty well actually, considering the complexity and breadth of the situation. in my personal (but limited experience), i feel my experience with healthcare hasn't been bad at all. furthermore, i have several relatives in the healthcare industry and none of them are very sure of UHC...

has anyone proposed a massive overhaul of the programs that currently serve the poor and elderly (medicare and medicade) and providing incentives for medium to large business to provide employee healthcare? isn't that where a lot of this argument is coming from?

and while i agree with a previous post that the DMV does get the job done... no one can argue with the massive amounts of redtape and bureaucracy. sure it is bad when you have to wait in line for your tags, but as another person mentioned, it is truly horrible when you wait in an emergency room for 2 hours with a broken bone. do we really want the government to take over yet another portion of free enterprise? economists and theorists have shown the government intervention is usually bad for business...and worse for people.

finally, while it might be threadjacking, how have your experiences with tricare been, for those currently and previously in the military?

 

[The Chief]

... finally, while it might be threadjacking, how have your experiences with tricare been, for those currently and previously in the military?

Good, thoughtful post.

From experience, and as a general, unscientific statement, all my young, very well paid employees passed up their $100 a month health insurance, more $$$ for the BWM. They never got sick, so the thought, and if the they did, there was always the ER. "When I get old, then I will sign up for HC".

TRICARE for active duty seems to work well. Know most Doctors do not like to take TRICARE, as the rates are low. As for retired MIL, I give it an F minus. I include CHAMPUS, the other Gov'nment program, forerunner of TRICARE.

MEDICARE? My part B monthly contribution went from $50 to over $200 month over a 3 year period and still climbing. I still have my Federal Health Insurance, costs about $100 month, coverage is far better. Of course FEDGOV pays a huge share of that. Decision time.

Maryland is losing Doctors. Recently my primary care Doc opted out of all insurance programs. Will treat you, but you gotta pay up front and then you fight the Insurance companies/FedGov(MC) on your own. (He is best in business, can get away with it). Decision time again, so soon?