Tailhook?

[Frumby]

Ya know Sticky,

All this complaining about duty on this thread, maybe we should reinstitute the 24 hour SDO sleeping post within the ready room. Considering we train to fly in the fleet, maybe we should practice pulling duty like the fleet. Just a suggestion.

Frumby

 

[bolterking]

Your posts reek of Kool-Aid -- all the right buzz words and phraseology.

Look, I'm a realist, a pragmatist if you will. You stick a kid in a shack for hours on end with no entertainment but making log entries and pissing in the grass while jets land, you're probably not going to get a solid attention span. Half-mast, feet kicked up, reading the magazine that's in there is the reality.

Yep....sounds exactly like dereliction of duty. thanks for proving the point.

 

[bolterking]

Ya know Sticky,

All this complaining about duty on this thread, maybe we should reinstitute the 24 hour SDO sleeping post within the ready room. Considering we train to fly in the fleet, maybe we should practice pulling duty like the fleet. Just a suggestion.

Frumby

I vote VMFAT-101 for best couch.

 

[squeeze]

Yep....sounds exactly like dereliction of duty. thanks for proving the point.

No problem. Now that we agree on truth, how do you fix it?

 

[Gatordev]

Reading your comment brings up a point that is sad. It may or may not be true but fact it is being discussed is sad. "Recent string of CNATRA mishaps has convinced those in charge to focus more on safety". At no point should NAE ever have to say something like that. Safety should always be #1 concern in training environment and even in combat operations for that matter. .

PLEASE, do not quote a SNA on a web forum as what CNATRA's current policy is. This was not what happened and if there's any one place that puts safety far and away above everything else, it's the TRACOM.

 

[MasterBates]

To fix RDO:

No more than 4 hours continuous duty. After 4 hours of sweating your balls off, you are zapped.

GA style headphones for the RDO shack. If I wear earplugs, I can't hear/understand the radio of a jet is at MRT 75' from me. If I don't wear earplugs, I still can't understand the radio, and get a bitchin headache to boot.

PUT A FVCKING PORT-A-JOHN OUT THERE.
I have been in the shack for 12+ straight, and dropping a deuce in the trashcan sucks.

Have the WDO call the RDO when solos cancel/push right. I can't count how many times I was out there for an extra hour or two waiting for ENS Schmuckatelli to launch, only to call and go "where is 3xx" to be told "oh we canceled him an hour ago".

2nd Radio. AN/IR/FORM solos coming in approach, and solos in the FCLP pattern mean you have to choose on who to hear. Also, when there is some sort of problem with a solo I would like the ability to talk to him on strike, while keeping tabs on the other solos on button 3/13/20

 

[bolterking]

PLEASE, do not quote a SNA on a web forum as what CNATRA's current policy is. This was not what happened and if there's any one place that puts safety far and away above everything else, it's the TRACOM.

Gator I couldn't agree more. Any my post was not to throw darts, and not to implicate anyone or any command and their thoughts and policy. Just never hurts to stand back and have mini safety standdown and with rash of events over past year, truth is we have all thought what can we do better. Post was just meant to bring to life this and hopefully something SNA's can think about and learn from if they choose to. This is a risky business we are in. Never let your guard down and never let safety fall from top of your list. Seen it too many times in past years and been to too many damn funerals.

Fly safe and safety first

 

[bolterking]

To fix RDO:
Have the WDO call the RDO when solos cancel/push right. I can't count how many times I was out there for an extra hour or two waiting for ENS Schmuckatelli to launch, only to call and go "where is 3xx" to be told "oh we canceled him an hour ago".

Very good point. Been on both sides of that watch. Something to bring up at AOM

 

[Frumby]

Lt Bates,

I will speak to the CSO about the RDO duty because you are right. The duty (10 years ago) was only 4 hours a shift. It was only manned by SNA's until a near mishap forced it to be "winged" aviators much to everyones disgust. Frankly, I can't imagine a 12 hour shift in that shack during the summer. Have you detailed your "fix" that you posted with the XO? If you haven't then you need to now. Is everyone pulling the same amount of RDO as you because that just seems to be an incredible amount. You start from your end and I will start from mine. Hopefully, we can meet in the middle with a solution.

Frumby

 

[Gatordev]

Lt Bates,

I will speak to the CSO about the RDO duty because you are right. The duty (10 years ago) was only 4 hours a shift. It was only manned by SNA's until a near mishap forced it to be "winged" aviators much to everyones disgust. Frankly, I can't imagine a 12 hour shift in that shack during the summer. Have you detailed your "fix" that you posted with the XO? If you haven't then you need to now. Is everyone pulling the same amount of RDO as you because that just seems to be an incredible amount. You start from your end and I will start from mine. Hopefully, we can meet in the middle with a solution.

Frumby

I agree with both yours and MB's points, but just know it's not only Advanced that has this cross to bear. The Primary VTs also have this duty at all the OLFs, and many have stood 12 hour duties. Not sure how it is for you guys, but we also get to be an informal tower, as well. It sucks, it's hot, and we don't get someone to come out and relieve us when solos aren't flying.

Often times the problem would come in w/ limited numbers of IPs and limited qualified RDOs. As a result, IPs would have to stand the duty all day rather than half the day and have to stand it more often. Fun times.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Reading your comment brings up a point that is sad. It may or may not be true but fact it is being discussed is sad. "Recent string of CNATRA mishaps has convinced those in charge to focus more on safety". At no point should NAE ever have to say something like that. Safety should always be #1 concern in training environment and even in combat operations for that matter. Everyone is a safety officer and has a duty to fulfill that when it comes to safety. After all I don't care if you are just a student or nugget JO...it's your life too. We get so focused on mission at hand and pressure from leadership to get X's or mission complete that sometimes that pressure puts us into bad situations when bottom line never a reason to go there. Reminds me of an LSO that refused to recover aircraft because had no centerline camera (not safe thing to do). Air Boss and Capt of ship said you will recover them and we will fix it after recovery. He stuck to his guns and said no and stood out in LA and waived every aircraft off until the camera got fixed. Extreme but has good learning point. Operational tempo should never trump safety.

Well the other side to think about is not enough IP's and flying three times a day for 18 months straight is not wise either. Leads to shortcuts (brief and debrief times cut short) and complacency and in my own opinion I think played a role in one of those mishaps. Once again just my personal opinion and leave it at that.

Sad fact is it took that many mishaps to come to this realization that something is broke. And it is not smart to cut flight hours out of program but that is a whole different discussion. It's bad business and unfortunately NAE is turning into a business and decisions are being made as a business.

Bullshit.

I'm with you on the TRACOM.......because from an operational perspective, a training X is not worth a crashed jet or a lost life.

In an operational squadron in a training environment, the line is a little less clear, because we have to be prepared to operate those weapon systems later in an operational combat environment. Combat should not be the first time to try these things, ideally. We have responsible people who are paid the big bucks (COs) who are assisted by well trained folks (OpsOs, WTIs, and DOSSs) to make the decision where the line is.

In an operational combat situation, MISSION ACCOMPLISHMENT COMES FIRST. Period. Dot.

Safety is the byproduct of professionalism. People who forget that also seem to forget what the "O" in ORM stands for.

Without it, it's just TRA.

 

[phrogpilot73]

In an operational combat situation, MISSION ACCOMPLISHMENT COMES FIRST. Period. Dot.

Wholeheartedly agree. I would have said "fuck no" to flying from Al Qaim to Baghdad in 1/4 mile vis LLL on goggles. The only thing was, I had 4 urgent surgicals on board. That means they HAD to get to Baghdad - and I was the only way. At that point, I owed it to them to do my best to get them there. I did. Would I do it again? In a New York minute.

 

[MasterBates]

Lt Bates,

I will speak to the CSO about the RDO duty because you are right. The duty (10 years ago) was only 4 hours a shift. It was only manned by SNA's until a near mishap forced it to be "winged" aviators much to everyones disgust. Frankly, I can't imagine a 12 hour shift in that shack during the summer. Have you detailed your "fix" that you posted with the XO? If you haven't then you need to now. Is everyone pulling the same amount of RDO as you because that just seems to be an incredible amount. You start from your end and I will start from mine. Hopefully, we can meet in the middle with a solution.

Frumby

Frumby,

I have spoken informally, but an point paper will be on the XO's desk Monday. Just so it is known it is an issue. I don't want to say I got "abused" with RDO when I was NPQ'd for 5 months, but standing more watch in 2 months than you have flown in 4 years is kind of odd.

 

[RockySLP]

Reading your comment brings up a point that is sad. It may or may not be true but fact it is being discussed is sad.

There's another point that is sad. It may or may not be true but it is now an official rumor.

I'll see how long it takes to hit the SNA ready room.

 

[Beans]

There's another point that is sad. It may or may not be true but it is now an official rumor.

I'll see how long it takes to hit the SNA ready room.

Oh cool, thanks for the info.