T-45 vs Bird HUD Video

[bolterking]

Why don't you explain to me the reason those procedures are there.


Yes, it is flight school. Not pre-school. What are you trying to teach a student who will more than likely go on to fly single seat/definitely fly single pilot? Want them to depend on someone else or follow procedures on their own? I would rather teach the student to be a good single pilot and do things on their own and do things right.

If a student overspeeds the gear or the flaps, is that safety of flight? Not really. Nothing a down/SOD and a maint inspection can't fix.

Hot mic in multi seat airplane is safety of flight issue. Eject calls low/slow are very time critical, don't want to be looking for switches. If you think they are of the same vein, then I weep along with A4s.

Flight school is pre-school right? I always thought so going through LOL.

First time students are in jet is BI and they are under the IFR Bag. So how do they know what is outside when raising the gear or have fast hands in cockpit with pitot-static failure? How about learning habits and procedures. IP signed for jet not student so it's his responsibility. As for theory so what just a gear inspection. Maintenance time and work.

Single seat arguement...yes we are training them to be single seat pilots (sorry multi-crew guys...love you all) but still have to build a solid procedure baseline. Why does OCS have you memorize all that useless knowledge crap? Goes to same principle. Attention to detail and procedures. As an IP how do you know what the student is thinking? You don't. Verbalize thoughts over ICS is one way. Need to know the SNA's thought process and SA which is a HUGE part of Intermediate Flight school.

It is a huge safety of flight issue. I can't recall how many times a student raised the flaps on me below flap speed and settled into the weeds. This is the biggest reason these procedures are in place. Ask the IP who leveled off at 40 ft off a low key because student raised the flaps to try to make the run way. Some times too late to react. It's a safety loop and a good one but that is just my opinion.

Yes it's a hassarasement, god I hated it as student, but there are very good reasons why this is done.

 

[Gatordev]

Yeah in TW-1, you go hot mic when you run up the power and do your final wipe out checks. You stay hot mic until you get the gear up and locked with a handle check and then go cold mic.

More proof of how sometimes Stan isn't really Stan. Apparently TW-4 does something similar for their engine starts in Primary. TW-5 does not. The first time I had a TW-4 guy do it, I thought it was kind of odd, but whatever, must be "technique." Then every guy after that did it and I (and the other TW-5 IPs) figured it out.

 

[HokiePilot]

More proof of how sometimes Stan isn't really Stan. Apparently TW-4 does something similar for their engine starts in Primary. TW-5 does not. The first time I had a TW-4 guy do it, I thought it was kind of odd, but whatever, must be "technique." Then every guy after that did it and I (and the other TW-5 IPs) figured it out.

The justification we were given for it was that a few years ago, a student was starting up and had a hot start. He shut the fuel off and was motoring the starter with the ignition secured, but he never announced any of this. The instructor wasn't paying attention and saw that N1 wasn't rising and the condition level was at fuel off and put it up to idle. He asked the student if he was holding the ignition switch down. The student released it and said nope. They promptly torched the engine.

It is not listed in any of our checklist. We were just told we should do it.

 

[MasterBates]

It was in the "appoved verbage list" within the last year.

It was written "blahblah, switching hot mic, starting on the X, blahblah"

I'm too lazy to dig my T-34 Blue Brains out.

 

[BACONATOR]

It was in the "appoved verbage list" within the last year.

It was written "blahblah, switching hot mic, starting on the X, blahblah"

I'm too lazy to dig my T-34 Blue Brains out.

Before starting the clock and starter switch on, you switch to hot-mic. You go cold after a good start has been confirmed.

The above example is a great example of how NATOPS (or wing SOP) is "Written in blood" (so to speak).

It makes sense for a critical phase of the flight with the SMA's hands off the PCL (aka- start) to be on hot-mic. Perhaps the IP isn't paying as much attention as the SMA (especially in later FAMS) and if the SMA does something and the IP disagrees, results can be disasterous as was shown above.

I think hot-mic would make sense for emergency situations, OCF practice etc, but I am a nobody.

 

[Brett327]

Before starting the clock and starter switch on, you switch to hot-mic. You go cold after a good start has been confirmed.

The above example is a great example of how NATOPS (or wing SOP) is "Written in blood" (so to speak).

It makes sense for a critical phase of the flight with the SMA's hands off the PCL (aka- start) to be on hot-mic. Perhaps the IP isn't paying as much attention as the SMA (especially in later FAMS) and if the SMA does something and the IP disagrees, results can be disasterous as was shown above.

I think hot-mic would make sense for emergency situations, OCF practice etc, but I am a nobody.

So engine starts are a critical phase of flight now? LOL I'm going to start arming my seat before starts from now on.

Brett

 

[MasterBates]

As opposed to the -45, where I say about 20 words total between strapping in and taxing out..

 

[BACONATOR]

So engine starts are a critical phase of flight now? LOL I'm going to start arming my seat before starts from now on.

Brett

It is when you have an inexperienced SMA who doesn't know his ass from his elbow doing the start and possibly toasting the engine.:icon_wink

Not saying I have a tough time with starts, but I'm sure there are some....

 

[MasterBates]

If you are that wrapped up about startin the TurboWeenie Joboy, you are going to LOVE starting the TH-57 or any -60

 

[nittany03]

Let alone doing the Chinese fire drill that is a Prowler hot pit/switch.:icon_tong

 

[Scoob]

Let alone doing the Chinese fire drill that is a Prowler hot pit/switch.:icon_tong

I think you missed MB's underlying point there.

 

[insanebikerboy]

It makes sense for a critical phase of the flight with the SMA's hands off the PCL (aka- start) to be on hot-mic. Perhaps the IP isn't paying as much attention as the SMA (especially in later FAMS) and if the SMA does something and the IP disagrees, results can be disasterous as was shown above.

While I don't have any problem with it being on hot-mic, why is it that big of a deal? If I can remember correctly, the only time you take your hand off of the PCL on start is when you push the condition lever from fuel off to idle.

The problem as I see it (or at least in the above torched engine example) isn't the fact that the ics should have been on hot or cold, but that there was movement of the controls in that situation by the person not at the controls. Granted, it's a stud in primary so his head may not all be there, but I think the appropriate response would have been to ask first, or at least announce what he was doing, before popping the condition lever to idle.

Just my $.02.

 

[scoober78]

While I don't have any problem with it being on hot-mic, why is it that big of a deal? If I can remember correctly, the only time you take your hand off of the PCL on start is when you push the condition lever from fuel off to idle.

The problem as I see it (or at least in the above torched engine example) isn't the fact that the ics should have been on hot or cold, but that there was movement of the controls in that situation by the person not at the controls. Granted, it's a stud in primary so his head may not all be there, but I think the appropriate response would have been to ask first, or at least announce what he was doing, before popping the condition lever to idle.

Just my $.02.

Stan notes say that you keep you hand on the condition lever until the starter is off IIRC.

Congrats!

 

[Nose]

I can't recall how many times a student raised the flaps on me below flap speed and settled into the weeds. This is the biggest reason these procedures are in place.

If you "settled into the weeds" I hope the Student got a down. But somehow I doubt it...

Yes it's a hassarasement, god I hated it as student, but there are very good reasons why this is done.

Sure, harassment is always a good reason.

Maintenance gets paid to do inspections, particularly when they are contract maintenance.

Teach them correctly, and you don't need them to "tell you what they are thinking" or any other touchy-feely bs, you will know it.

 

[Gatordev]

It is when you have an inexperienced SMA who doesn't know his ass from his elbow doing the start and possibly toasting the engine.:icon_wink

And yet, Wing 5 manages to start engines everyday w/out this problem. If someone says to use hot mike, fine, use it per the Wing instruction, but starting the engine is really not as big a deal as you make it out to be.

Maintenance gets paid to do inspections, particularly when they are contract maintenance.

I can't speak for Jet Advanced, but there's plenty of examples in Primary land where verbalizing something first can save lots of headaches. And while Maint. is there to do the work, what about the X's lost due to the plane now being down? Not that big a deal, you say? Come sit and watch the fun on a clear day at Whiting (and Corpus, I'm sure).