Status of OC in a ROTC unit/OCS for NROTC Units??

[bunk22]

And damnit, midshipmen should go through OCS. Like boot camp, I’m sure the purpose of OCS is not to teach you things to use in the fleet. It is to see who can handle stress and operate effectively under pressure. Come on, some of the mids I know would crack and start crying and drop out within the first week of any type of boot camp setting. Yet they are going to get commissioned and lead people in the most stressful of situations. Many of you know how much people lose their minds and forget their values when put under stress, like in boot camp or out in the field sleeping in the dirt. I think all of us would like to know that our leaders will stay calm under pressure when it really matters and lives are on the line.

So explain to me how OCS would help a mishipman deal better with stress and operate effectively under pressure? What stressful situations could an OCS officer handle better than an officer who earned his comission via NROTC?

Here's what I think. I think some of you don't know jack shit. Matter of fact, some of you know less than jack shit. Kind of like the individual who brags about his flight experience to those who have more flight time in left turns. Officers come in all shapes and sizes, have all sorts of abilities from various backgrounds. I kind get this idea from 15 years active duty, from an officers perspective of course. I have yet to see one thing in common amongst good leaders....those who don't crack under "stress" or "pressure" as a few of you would say. I can think right now of a handful of excellent officers/leaders, a few being CO's and all from different backgrounds.

Did NROTC offer me anything in terms of "real world" experience? Some exposure to it but not much. Did it teach me how to salute, march, say yes sir...sure. The one and only thing that is going to give a young officer a step above any other is experience. The 13 weeks at OCS isn't going to provide that. The 4 years of NROTC isn't going to provide it except for some exposure to the real Navy during one's 1st class cruise. Either way, from what I've seen as an aviator and IP now both at the FRS and primary flight training, where one earns their comission means absolutely nothing in the air. Folks panic, freeze, stutter, struggle, etc, regardless of their 13 week OCS experience; regardless of their 4 years at NROTC or any of the academies.

 

[Ducky]

My opinion on OCs and MECEPs being integrated into the unit...Doesn't really matter.

For the record though...

It is all about unit culture. Our MECEPs tend to hold themselves separate from the rest of the battalion and are pretty invisible except when it comes to being in billets. We tend to leave the Mids the hell alone with their crayons until they want to color on the walls and then we step in to get them back on task. Same when we're in billets (usually a command billet). We execute the billet with the panache that's expected, and don't meddle in the learning process. OCs though, not so much except for one that is coming from and going back to EOD (He's good people) and a former corpsman (she's cool, too). I'm not sure where that fork happens. Maybe it's when they put the khakis on, but I do know that there's nothing stopping them from seizing and defining their own role in our battalion. It's what we did instead of whining about it on the internet.

Thanks for changing the name of this thread to something appropriate.

Comming from a unit that had only 1-2 OCs and 1-2 MECEPS. Everything was MIDN run and run well. INDOC was 100% MIDN planned. Drill meet 100% MIDN planned. All BN events 100% MIDN planned. So I would just like to put it out there that there are units where the MIDN do a bang up job. So not all MIDN are running around with "crayons" jackin stuff up.

In the end you have to work with the MIDN in NROTC and in the fleet so if they really suck like they are being described help them. Keeping all that fleet experience to yourself really does no one any good in a learning/commissioning environment.

LEAD BY EXAMPLE!!! Its the answer to 99% of this thread.

 

[BigRed389]

Having done 2 years of NROTC and being an OCS grad...

On the whole "pressure test" of OCS, while I'd agree OCS is an overall much more high stress environment, in retrospect, I'd say that ROTC is a closer approximation to the fleet working environment than OCS.
As a mid, you have to balance your social life, work schedule, and general military traits...pretty much the same thing any JO has to do.

At OCS, your classmates would not even LET you screw up. In SWO land at least, nobody holds your hand, it's sink or swim.

Also, I'd bet stats would show that the majority of OCS dropouts happen in Week 1...and all ROTC units have an Indoc phase right?
Not to mention I knew various mids that dropped out at various points in the program, as late as first semester senior year.

I'd say the raw material matters more than the initial processing.

 

[statesman]

Someone hit on an important point earlier that I think gets over looked a lot. It had to do with pay.

Remember that a lot of Mids at NROTC units are holding down outside jobs and have to juggle their ROTC responsibilities with their obligations and commitments to their civilian employers.

Granted we get 4 years as opposed to only 3 and we get some time off in the summer, but holding down a job and doing 15 to 18 and sometimes 21 hours worth of school, waking up several times a week at 0530, and working 10-20 hours for 16 or 17 weeks at a time is a good deal of pressure to put on someone. We attrite a great deal of Mids at our unit who just arent motivated to keep up with that kind of pressure.

I will also share that in the 3 years Ive been at our unit I have seen no less than 5 OCs attrite from the program, which amounts to about 10-15% of the OCs who have come through. Not all OCs are rock stars, just like not all Mids are rock stars.

My point is that OCS, USNA, ROTC all have different ways of putting pressure on people, and they are all effective, and none are all encompassing. USNA guys go through a lot, dont get much freetime, etc, but they also dont do their laundry, dont have to worry about making rent, or working outside of studying. OCS guys get it hard for 12-13 weeks, and its clearly a difficult route (stories from guys who DORd can be found on the boards), but in the end its only 13 weeks, its kinda like a sprint. NROTC gets a lot of freetime, and is much more relaxed than USNA and OCS but has its own challenges.

I'm one of the older Mids that I know of (I started the program at 22) and worked in a job where I had my own office and was making a good deal of money before I started, so I find it impressive when a 17 year old kid right out of highschool can hold down a 15 hour job, 15 hours of school, and wake up early several times a week, and do it for 4 years.

 

[phrogpilot73]

So explain to me how OCS would help a mishipman deal better with stress and operate effectively under pressure? What stressful situations could an OCS officer handle better than an officer who earned his comission via NROTC?

Either way, from what I've seen as an aviator and IP now both at the FRS and primary flight training, where one earns their comission means absolutely nothing in the air. Folks panic, freeze, sutter, struggle, etc, regardless of their 13 week OCS experience; regardless of their 4 years at NROTC or any of the academies.

I agree with bunk wholeheartedly. I've flown with all sizes and shapes of copilots from all different commissioning sources.

Had an NROTC kid that declared an emergency when all we had to do was reseat the arming handle on our flare buckets. Worked hard, but at times was a bit clueless. However, I would have felt more comfortable handing him the controls the night that I got vertigo. Instead, I had to hand the controls to a MECEP kid who up until that point really hadn't impressed any of us. Sometimes unsafe, sometimes clueless, and a bit lazy at times. He surprised me, because he came through with flying colors. I'm very glad that I never found out if an OCS kid would have done as well, because while he was a phenomenal stick - he (for three days in a row) couldn't tell me what the IIMC breakup procedures were. He skated by on his stick wiggling skills, never realizing that it's everything else that makes you a good pilot.

Everybody's a fuckbucket when they get to the fleet. It doesn't matter where you came from.

 

[scoober78]

Everybody's a fuckbucket when they get to the fleet. It doesn't matter where you came from.

So at least I've got that to look forward to...

Hillarious.

 

[usmarinemike]

Comming from a unit that had only 1-2 OCs and 1-2 MECEPS. Everything was MIDN run and run well, supremely well in fact. INDOC was 100% MIDN planned. Drill meet 100% MIDN planned. All BN events 100% MIDN planned. So I would just like to put it out there that there are units where the MIDN do a bang up job. So not all MIDN are running around with "crayons" jackin stuff up.

In the end you have to work with the MIDN in NROTC and in the fleet so if they really suck like they are being described help them. Keeping all that fleet experience to yourself really does no one any good in a learning/commissioning environment.

LEAD BY EXAMPLE!!! Its the answer to 99% of this thread.

Our Bn is also midshipman run and run well. That's why we do become like ghosts until things get a little off keel or if they're heading that way. If we ride into drill every day like we're Patton because we want people to follow us, nobody would. You read something into my post that wasn't there, because you wanted it to be there. The best MECEP is one that helps midshipmen out when they need to, locks them on when it's appropriate, is relatively well liked, and is pretty much forgotten 6 months after he leaves.

 

[jus2mch]

Same situation I have seen. I think the divide is dependent on what part of the Navy the OC comes from. Remember that alot of the ship types ("fleeters"), airdales and sub guys probably don't even know what a fire team leader is. I don't know, maybe they get to the ROTC unit and feel lost.

The other types like your EOD and Corpsman OC's probably take shit a little differently since they have had jobs that actually value things like command presence and such. I'm willing to bet that the HM was a FMF Corpsman.

I guess jobs in the aviation community don't "value command presence", whatever that means.

 

[Flyboylance]

Having done 2 years of NROTC and being an OCS grad...

On the whole "pressure test" of OCS, while I'd agree OCS is an overall much more high stress environment, in retrospect, I'd say that ROTC is a closer approximation to the fleet working environment than OCS.
As a mid, you have to balance your social life, work schedule, and general military traits...pretty much the same thing any JO has to do.

At OCS, your classmates would not even LET you screw up. In SWO land at least, nobody holds your hand, it's sink or swim.

Also, I'd bet stats would show that the majority of OCS dropouts happen in Week 1...and all ROTC units have an Indoc phase right?
Not to mention I knew various mids that dropped out at various points in the program, as late as first semester senior year.

I'd say the raw material matters more than the initial processing.

Thanks BIG RED. This is what I was curious about. I wanted to hear it from someone who had done both, and see what they thought. Unfortunately, there are not many like you that have done both. I apprecite your comments and will take them in.

 

[Flyboylance]

Our Bn is also midshipman run and run well. That's why we do become like ghosts until things get a little off keel or if they're heading that way. If we ride into drill every day like we're Patton because we want people to follow us, nobody would. You read something into my post that wasn't there, because you wanted it to be there. The best MECEP is one that helps midshipmen out when they need to, locks them on when it's appropriate, is relatively well liked, and is pretty much forgotten 6 months after he leaves.

I agree completely!!

 

[Flash]

I have to interject here......One of the things that most OC's experience when they go to the ROTC unit is extreme culture shock. All of the fleet OC's were rock stars in their perspective units......There is bound to be some tension when you have to take orders from a 19 year old freshman middy......Now that I have given some of the background to this situation, here is MY opinion about this situation. I believe that the midshipmen are my peers. I figured out early on that I wasn't any better than a midshipmen because I was an OC......We are all getting commissioned as Ensigns, OC and midshipmen alike......To get back to the issue of OCS, I don't think that mids should have to go to OCS. I am sure it would help to weed out some of the douchebags, but I don't think it should be required.

Once again, just my .02.

I think FMRAM says it well, giving a very good perspective on where an OC's place should be in the grand scheme that is an NROTC unit. I also have the added benefit of actually serving with FMRAM in a squadron, so while I have some reservations about applying the bolded part to him.........I know that he is not talking out his ass.

I had quite a few OC's in my unit, all of them Nuc's, and there was actaully quite a bit of tension between them and the middies. Mostly it had to do with the fact that we were a military school and many of the things that we did seemed (and often were) ridiculous or just plain silly to a prior. They and the MECEP's were the only non-cadets who went to class with us and were were exposed to it constantly. Most of them treated us and what we did with mild disdain, and we returned it. But there were a few that took the time to get to know us and shared their wisdom and experience with the regular middies, and we were both better for it. I imagine that there might be some of that tension at many units, though maybe not as stark as mine, but I don't care where you are, if you start thinking that you are better than your colleagues then there is something wrong. You all are going to end up in the fleet doing the same things so I don't know how that is going to help anything.

As has been pointed out already, there are tools, idiots and superstars from every commissioning source, LDO/CWO's and DCO's included. FMRAM and every other guy or gal who has served in a fleet unit could tell you that. Often times you have no idea where an officer was commissioned from and no one really cares either. And often you have no idea if someone was a prior, unless they look really old. But everyone knows who the good officers are and who are the bad ones.

So the moral of the story is, wherever you come from......just don't be a douchbag.

 

[CommodoreMid]

Our Bn is also midshipman run and run well. That's why we do become like ghosts until things get a little off keel or if they're heading that way. If we ride into drill every day like we're Patton because we want people to follow us, nobody would. You read something into my post that wasn't there, because you wanted it to be there. The best MECEP is one that helps midshipmen out when they need to, locks them on when it's appropriate, is relatively well liked, and is pretty much forgotten 6 months after he leaves.

I wish you would talk to some of our MECEPs.

 

[sickboy]

This is mostly for the OC's going to an NROTC unit.

OC's across the country are in programs that treat them as nothing more than midshipmen. Nothing against a mid, but we are not mids. According to CNSTCINST 1533.2, OC's are supposed to be leaders in the NROTC units. This is just not happening. It is up to you to ensure that everything is going as it is supposed to be. Don't rely on someone else to do it for you. If you have any questions hit me up, I have read every part pertaining to OC's.

V/R

OC Herndon

I'm not an OC, although I was enlisted for a while, but if OC's are supposed to be leaders then why aren't you being one? I always thought of a leader as a person, not a position.

My BN is Midshipmen run as well, and the OC's are treated like Mids, because regardless of our background we are all at the same place now. The best OC's and Mids I've seen are the ones that are leaders even without an official billet.

 

[usmarinemike]

I wish you would talk to some of our MECEPs.

I know a MECEP who went though your school. 3 minutes after we man-hugged and slapped each others backs when we reported to OCS a few years ago one thing that I remember him saying was that the unit was wound a little too tight. Like in my original post, it's all about unit culture.

 

[CommodoreMid]

I know a MECEP who went though your school. 3 minutes after we man-hugged and slapped each others backs when we reported to OCS a few years ago one thing that I remember him saying was that the unit was wound a little too tight. Like in my original post, it's all about unit culture.

If the guy you're talking about got commissioned last year, he was awesome, though I'm surprised he would say we're an uptight unit considering he was pretty much allowed to do whatever he wanted.

Again, like other mids on here have said, we definitely value the experience of MECEPs/OCs, but we just hate it when they walk around like their shit don't stink and think they know how to do EVERYTHING better because they went to boot.