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State of the Union Reaction

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Okay, to everyone who wants a 'surge' or at the very least keep current troop levels, please explain to me how that will help things. I am really curious because for the past 3 1/2 years we have had a similar number of troops in Iraq, and yet things have only gotten arguably worse. The number of attacks on US troops has risen steadily and inexorably upward. A big part of the reason the casualty numbers have not shot up at the same rates is because we have gotten somewhat better at countering some of the attacks and withdrew into fortified bases. But that only helps so much, and it does not solve the root problems like the complete lack of government, basic services and any semblance of order in many parts of the country.

How do we fix that stuff? Well, some of it is unfixable. The Iraqi's trust that the US will make things better for them is pretty much shot by now. After years of telling them it will get better there is still not much to be hopeful for. Oil production is still below prewar levels, unemployment is rampant, power is spotty, and reconstruction has been uneven and incomplete in many cases.

So what should be the goals right now? Some would argue that we need to ensure that there is a viable democratic government there. I think that the ineptitude of the current government, riddled as it is with corruption and sectarian divisions, is simply broke. The easiest way to fix it is to enforce some sort of federation on the country and divide the spoils, specifically oil. Ram it down there throats for all I care, it is probably the only solution short of putting in another ruthless dictator in charge who holds the country together by force and intimidation.

Many of you say we need to fight the 'terrorists' and make sure 'they' (who, please tell me) don't bomb the US. I ask you who the hell we are even fighting over there? To say that we need to 'kill all the terrorists' is not only a simplistic way of looking at what is happening in Iraq, but sheer and blatant ignorance. Do you all honestly think that most of the people who we are fighting are foreign terrorists? While it is a point of raging debate even among people who know a lot better than me, there is general agreement that it has never been more than a small minority. If there were a larger number why don't you hear a lot about it? Why have they not put them on display like Zarqawi? Where are they??!!!

And if you think foreign terrorists, or Iran for that matter, is behind most of the attacks on US forces then you are wrong again. While foreign elements have been behind some of the worst attacks, like some of the more spectacular car bombings and the al-Askari shrine bombing, most of the violence is brought to you by your local insurgents. Many of these guys could care less about Al-Qaeda, or Iran, or even what goes on in the next city. They just see the US as being an occupier, in their homeland. Sound familiar? Isn't that exactly why most Southerners fought for the South, because the Yankees were there? How do we fix that? Pull out? I don't see another way......getting them to like us is like trying to get that girl you really like, but doesn't like you like that, to go out with you. All the roses and chocolate in the world ain't going to get her into your bed, sorry........just ask Brett.....;)

What we did when we invaded is unleash the full fury of long simmering sectarian tensions that gripped the country since its artificial creation by the British after World War I. We can't fix them, they will have to settle it themselves. Simple as that, that is what the situation is over there.

And whether we like or not, we will have to leave with most of our troops sooner or later. What do you suggest we do? Leave them there for 5, 10 or 20 years? The Israelis were in southern Lebanon for 18 years and they are just as good, if not better than we are at counter-insurgency. When do we declare victory? When we kill all or most of the terrorists? How do we know when that is? When violence has dropped to acceptable levels? What exactly is that? Or better yet, leave it to the next President, preferably a Democrat some can blame our defeat on them.

We might be able to do some nice things in the short term but in the long term we are pretty screwed for now. The best scenario is to have a loose federation that gets along, somewhat, that does not drag its neighbors into a larger Mideast war (Shia (Iran) vs Sunni (Saudi) vs Kurd vs Turk vs Shia etc). It is a mess and we can't fix it, cut our losses while we still can, pull out and try and start repairing the damage we hath wrought.

Good enough for you? Oh yeah, that’s right, not for most.........well, some you just can't reach........:(
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
While I don't necessarily agree with the thrust of Flash's post, he does make some good points. My understanding of how the surge will be any different is manifold. First, ROE changes will be made to prevent the local politicos from interfering with out military ops, like going after Sadr. Second, both US and Iraqi forces are going to converge on Baghdad in an effort to establish lasting security there. Third, a PRT approach and jobs initiative will address reconstruction and employment issues. Lastly, a fairly significant change in leadership will bring a fresh set of eyes and opinions to bear. Now, whether these things will result in meaningful changes remains to be seen, but I don't think it's accurate (or fair) to call it business as usual and just hoping for the best.

Oh yeah, and for those who advocate a withdrawal prior to completion (Mesopotamius Interruptus) - everyone knows the pullout method doesn't work. :D I should write for Colbert. ;)

Brett
 

raptor10

Philosoraptor
Contributor
It's not as though our presence in Iraq is preventing Al Qaeda members from getting on a plane and coming to the US. If they want to do an operation here, they will, regardless of what is going on in Iraq.

Case in point...

Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples, head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, recently testified that documents captured by coalition forces during a raid of a safe house believed to house Iraqi members of al Qaeda six months ago "revealed [AQI] was planning terrorist operations in the U.S."

"This appears to be the first hard evidence al Qaeda in Iraq was trying to attack us here at home," said ABC News consultant Richard Clarke, former chief counterterrorism adviser on the U.S. National Security Council.
 

thull

Well-Known Member
Iraq's a mess. we should just pack it up, and get back to doing what we do best...making money and renovating our houses so we can flip em and screw the next guy.

Who's with me?
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Iraq's a mess. we should just pack it up, and get back to doing what we do best...making money and renovating our houses so we can flip em and screw the next guy.

Who's with me?

Cricket...cricket... That is why you're not in charge.

Brett
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
While I don't necessarily agree with the thrust of Flash's post, he does make some good points. My understanding of how the surge will be any different is manifold. First, ROE changes will be made to prevent the local politicos from interfering with out military ops, like going after Sadr. Second, both US and Iraqi forces are going to converge on Baghdad in an effort to establish lasting security there. Third, a PRT approach and jobs initiative will address reconstruction and employment issues. Lastly, a fairly significant change in leadership will bring a fresh set of eyes and opinions to bear. Now, whether these things will result in meaningful changes remains to be seen, but I don't think it's accurate (or fair) to call it business as usual and just hoping for the best.

I have faith in Lt Gen Patreaus, but I think he and the change in strategy will be too little too late.

Oh yeah, and for those who advocate a withdrawal prior to completion (Mesopotamius Interruptus) - everyone knows the pullout method doesn't work. :D I should write for Colbert. ;)

Brett

Learn that the hard way with those 'ladies' you picked up at the Blue Dolphin and Mi Pueblo? :D
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Learn that the hard way with those 'ladies' you picked up at the Blue Dolphin and Mi Pueblo? :D

Some of the best "experience" is through learning from the mistakes of others. ;)

Brett
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Some of the best "experience" is through learning from the mistakes of others. ;)

Brett

You sure there are not any mini-Brett's running around Coupeville, Oak Harbor or Anacortes? Are you going to be welcomed back with open arms with some of the 'locals'?
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
You sure there are not any mini-Brett's running around Coupeville, Oak Harbor or Anacortes? Are you going to be welcomed back with open arms with some of the 'locals'?

If there are, I don't want to know about it. :D If any of my progeny are lurking here on AW, you showing up on my doorstep will result in me hiring a drifter to kill you and dump your body in the sound. Call it a retroactive abortion. :D

Brett
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Oh yeah, and for those who advocate a withdrawal prior to completion (Mesopotamius Interruptus) - everyone knows the pullout method doesn't work. :D I should write for Colbert. ;)
Possibly the funniest thing I have read on this site . . . thank you for brightening up a day spent mind-melding with the SIPRNET . . .
 

USMC_NA

Registered User
All this political talk is making me dizzy. Dude, it's just your job. And yes, Iraq is a mess. Who cares? I don't. I've gone over there twice and you know what? It sucked..............twice. They don't like us, we don't like them and everybody knew it was going to go down sooner or later. If the policy making rich boys want to continue, well it's always fun blowing up sh!t, and if they don't, well I don't know about you guys but this ole' south carolina boy sure could use a WestPac! Remember those days? "He Numba Wan G-I!!
 

Mumbles

Registered User
pilot
Contributor
Mi Pueblo sucks....especially for karaoke....I'll be at the Tyee Inn. Thank You.

Casey
 
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