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Standby for more trouble with the airlines?

A4sForever

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
DanMav1156 said:
Please correct me, because I sense I'm wrong here, but what confuses me is
1. Why some airlines choose to use only union pilots and others (i.e. JetBlue/Southwest, etc) can get away with having none.
2. If there are so many pilots willing to work with non-unionized airlines, what keeps the major airlines from hiring union?
3. With seniority yielding tenure in the airlines, how much does a pilot have to fvck up before he is fired?
4. I understand that it's difficult to measure pilots' by merit, but how often does seniority get in the way of a crappy pilot keeping his job?
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1. Because they've grown up as a union shop, I would suspect. The non-union carriers generally trace their history to post-deregulation. I can't think of ONE airline management -- off the top of my head -- that "wants" a unionized work force.

2. I don't understand your question, but I suspect the answer is still somewhere in #1 above .... again, some guys will do ANYTHING and work for ANY company --- all w/ the dream of "moving up". Not staying where they are ...

3. A pilot has to fuck up a LOT w/ little things over the years -- or maybe just one "big one" to get fired. It's usually a combination of the two. It's tough to fire anyone from a union shop. That's perhaps why bankruptcy used to attract some less than "honest" managements -- it provided an avenue to wholesale firing of the unionized work force??? :)

*edit* ... I just gotta add to this --- by making it "hard" to fire someone, the airline pilot is PROTECTED, also. Airline management(s) tend to try to cut corners (usually legally) and fly the airplanes as cheaply as possible. Nothing wrong w/ that --- but when the shit hits the fan -- management wants a scapegoat. The situation might have contributing factors: shoddy maintenance, pressure to fly into bad weather, OPS scrimping on expensive training, SKEDS pushing the crew when they are fatigued (there's lots of possibilities, but you get the picture) ....but at the end of the day, management wants someone to "hang" when something goes 'wrong' if it might impact the public impression of the airline and therefore ultimately the bottom line.

The union and your seniority .... and your professional reputation .... go a long way to protect you from arbitrary firings.
4. Merit; no .... as what do any of us really "merit"??? We all get what's coming to us, that I DO know. But ability?? -- YES --- our abilities are continuously being scrutinized. As an Aviator -- the scrutiny continues FOREVER. I've "fired" and/or grounded junior guys and senior guys in the Navy and in the airlines --- but it's not usually a one-shot deal, nor should it be. There's got to be trends unless there's a catastrophic event which brings about someone's termination.
 
FrankTheTank

FrankTheTank

Professional Pot Stirrer
pilot
some airlines choose to use only union pilots and others (i.e. JetBlue/Southwest, etc)
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Actually the company hires you and then, after you are on the senority list, the union brings you in (apprentice while on probation and then regular member thereafter).

Also SWAPA is the union for Southwest pilot and Jetblue pilots appear to be in the final push for their JBPA (tentative union).
 
E

eddie

Working Plan B
Contributor
A4sForever said:
You've got it right -- so what's the question?? Perhaps I'm not getting the basis for your confusion.
...

Sheesh. Some of you guys ....

Click to expand...

:) I'm sort of free-wheeling here, so you may just get fed up with me and write this one off as youthful stupidity / ignornace. Keep in mind, the only reason I've thought about this at all is because a Lear pilot was telling me how stupid the seniority system was (naturally, he never worked for an airline like Joe Schmoe and I think of).

I guess I was wondering on the (im)possibility of a system like this:

Pilot A has 500 hours in type; he would be classified as such, no matter which airline he worked for. Seniority (let's just call it pay...) is derived from experience and flight hours, not years on Carrier X payroll.

Issues I can forsee / thoughts:

- The only pilots who get hired are ones with minimum hours and quals because they will be paid the least.

-Usually you incent an experienced and valuable employee to stay with your company by raising their salary. For the airlines, pilot experience cannot be translated very well from employer to employer, so pilots only stay in with the hopes that they you will pay them later. That seems to me like kind of a crappy working situtation, thus one that neccessitates a strong union presence (strong union, or necessity of one, in my short experience, is usually an indicator of a screwed up and sickly industry; regulation or otherwise).

- How could an airline (maybe) create a payscale derived purely from hours and quals? Large overhead capital... Hire a ton of high-time pilots for more than they are making now. Start a major ad campaign about how your airline will pay a premium for experienced pilots: "unlike other airlines, we won't cut corners on your safety..." (get your insurance reduced), and hope to God most people care about more than the minimum. If it works, other carriers will be forced to switch over to that kind of a system, the union, or need for it, may eventually deteriorate because if Pilot A doesn't like how things are being run at Carrier X, he can take his flight time to Carrier Y. Market protection, like most other industries.

-Problems with that, if it did work on the sale end. Who the hell is going to hire stupid young minimums anymore? It gets harder to break into the business... for a time (I think).

-However, someone will have to replace their experience pool at some point, so junior hiring programs will spring up, based around the forced-retirement age and supply/demand/age of the fleet pilots in order to ensure a well of experienced pilots (because the consumer cares about that now... you built your business off of it). How you keep those junior pilots from jumping ship? Pay them more.


I dunno, I was just thinking about it.
 
A4sForever

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
eddie said:
:) I'm sort of free-wheeling here, so you may just get fed up with me and write this one off as youthful stupidity / ignornace. ....
Click to expand...

No way, Junior ... as you're a beautiful, beautiful person.

But I'm headin' out the door, gonna hitch up the horses and go to the big city --- and don't have time to really read your post and respond. So mebbe one of the other guys ... ???

Later ... :)
 
nugget81

nugget81

Well-Known Member
pilot
eddie said:
words...words....lots of words....
Click to expand...

Eddie, here's something you probably didn't know or think of:

When the airline and union negotiate contracts, the airline management doesn't actually determine how much each pilot makes. They say "we'll give you a pie this big" and the union says how much of that pie each pilot gets. Of course management wants to make the pie as small a possible and the union wants the opposite (when all the pilots had to make concessions, it was because the pie got much smaller.) So when it comes down to actual pay for a first year pilot, the union sets the rate (and its mediocre amount). As such we have a seniority system to determine pay amongst other things.
 
E

eddie

Working Plan B
Contributor
nugget81 said:
Eddie, here's something you probably didn't know or think of:

When the airline and union negotiate contracts, the airline management doesn't actually determine how much each pilot makes. They say "we'll give you a pie this big" and the union says how much of that pie each pilot gets. Of course management wants to make the pie as small a possible and the union wants the opposite (when all the pilots had to make concessions, it was because the pie got much smaller.) So when it comes down to actual pay for a first year pilot, the union sets the rate (and its mediocre amount). As such we have a seniority system to determine pay amongst other things.
Click to expand...

Nope, had no idea. It all seems very complicated, necessarily so, or otherwise.
 
A4sForever

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Flash said:
That would not be a surprise, the only thing keeping them afloat for years was the Italian government. If you ever wanted an example of a work program masquerading as an airline, Alitalia is it.
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That's kinda the same for many, if not most, "traditional" foreign carriers in my experience. Most of them started after WW2 with the direct participation of their respective governments -- national pride and all -- therefore national carriers. At the end of the day -- the government was always standing behind them. :)

It's changed somewhat in the past 15-20 years ... w/ a foreign version of "deregulation" ... :sleep_125
 
wink

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Alaska has been a well run quality operation for many many years. No one is immune to the shit storm the airlines are withering. That includes Southwest. All you guys that think SWA can't do any wrong just aren't familiar with their operation. Unfortunately, time is catching up with them. Some airlines were simply more vulnerable then others. No one is immune.
 
P

plc67

Active Member
pilot
You can go from the penthouse to the outhouse very quickly in this business. If somebody tells you they've figured out the airline industry they are on industrial strength crack. I think it was worth it but there are quite a few who would disagree and are leaving aviation. Or they're saying they are.
 
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