What, they fly the short bus?
We got rid of all but three S-3's.
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Special Forces for NAs/NFOs
- Thread starter Hopeful Hoya
- Start date
We got rid of all but three S-3's.
There have been 1-2 2nd tour LT billets to both 84 and 85 for each nomination cycle. The numbers PERS put out to the XO's last year were 8 slots for 84 to be filled by 2nd tour LT's, and 8 for 85. Will these numbers dwindle? Maybe. But they didn't change this year.
To the OP, if you want to work with the door kickers you will have to work hard, do well, have great timing, and a good amount of luck. There are at least 2 former JTACS for the teams that are now DH's in HSC squadrons on the east coast. From talking to them I think they may have been somewhat unique situations. Another option is ANGLICO. I've seen a couple guys do that in place of a disassociated sea tour.
Regardless of how you work "with" the operators, you will still only be working "with" them. They aren't going to send you to BUDS and make you a SEAL or anything... If anything you are going to be flying them around (and probably primarily for training), or you are going to be supporting them in some form or another on the ground.
exNavyOffRec
Well-Known Member
In his case he is AD USN, I think he kind of "stumbled into" the billet
Which makes sense, as it can take up to a year to gain a new FTS DH into a billet, so they still need the AC bodies to fight the brown snakes or whatever it is they're doing at the moment.
I'm not saying that the truth hasn't changed from when I got the brief, as we all know that happens at PERS, but looking at the historical FTS selects over the last two boards, HCS has opened up who they bring in a little bit now compared to two or three years ago, so it makes sense that the AC billets will eventually get smaller.
I figured as much. I realize that the Navy isn't like the movies and if I'm lucky enough to get an SNA/SNFO slot, they're not going to spend 2 years and a million dollars training me for one tour and then say "oh we're going to send you to BUD/S". It just still surprised me that the Navy arguably has the most versatile group of special operators with the SEALs yet such little in the way of aerial special ops support compared to the AF and Army. Although I guess that's what makes the SEALs so great; the fact that they are so independent and not reliant on other Navy assets for support.
The world wonders; maybe a newly minted O-5, last name begins with letter "L"?
I was among the "hopeful few" who thought that the stand-up of the Naval Expeditionary Combat Command (think "Riverine", brown water, SEABEEs, etc.) might actually portend the creation of a few dedicated helo or small fixed-wing squadrons to provide sort of specially-trained, dedicated support…ala the "Sea Wolves" and "Black Ponies" of Vietnam fame. Obviously, never happened.
They rely on all of the great assets under SOCCOM/JSOC for support. They didn't fly to bin Laden's time-share in Islamabad on Navy assets…but they surely flew.
Not to mention you would be too senior... No matter what airframe you would end up flying, you would be have been a LT for at least a couple years by the time you were finished with your first tour. Lateral transfer packages to NSW (BUDS) are not accepted from LT's. Before anyone points out a book or show on BUD's with a LT in the class, chances are that guy applied as a LTJG and put LT on before he reported. The teams are set up with a certain career progression for officers. They aren't going to want a senior transition with zero operational experience.
The Navy does have aerial special ops support squadrons. Two of them. HSC-84 and HSC-85, as previously mentioned. They (84) deployed in support of SEAL's in Iraq throughout the war and continue to deploy with SEAL's. The 160th is what it is. They've been getting the crazy dangerous missions for decades and will continue to do so, when they are available.
The majority of what you do, no matter who you fly with or what you fly, will be training. Navy rotary flying and HSC in particular will give you the opportunity to have SEAL's (or some other branch's BAMF's) fast roping out of your helicopter for a training mission, or calling you in on a gun run, or providing them with a kangaroo duck etc. If aerial SOF support interests you, you will have a good chance to practice it with the operators in Navy helicopters.
Which would be great! I would kill for an HCS FTS gig. Just being around 84 for the last several years they always seemed like some weird enigma of active duty and FTS guys with a smattering of SELRES. I had a conversation over a beer with one of their O-5's one time that told me he hadn't flown with United for his "day" job for 3 years!
That's kind of what the whole thread is about. They did have those, they were HCS-4 and HCS-5 (now HSC-84 and what eventually became HSC-85). They both existed before 9/11 and both tagged-teamed operations in Iraq for the entire time we were there (until -5 went away). HCS-4 is a direct decedent of HAL-4, aka the Sea Wolves, and -5 was born from the other HAL (5?). They are the dedicated SOF support assets that the Navy has to offer. The rest of us are just assets of opportunity.
The Reserves are always an interesting mix of eclectic individuals. My current CO went HSL -> HCS-5 ->HC-85 -> HSC-85 -> HSM, all while doing the airline thing (he got out right after 9/11...oops). My last CO went HS -> HCS-4 -> HCS-5 -> HSL. It's always refreshing to have those outside experiences/perspective when you go to work. Regardless of the numbers, if you're interested, I'd say definitely apply.
xmid said:
I only offer this for historical perspective because I'm always amused how the modern HSC guys like to strut around with their green NWUs because they "directly support SOF, unlike everyone else." Prior to Iraq kicking off, even LAMPS/HSL was providing daily SOF support in the Gulf. Most small boy detachments would launch with some sort of SEAL or Coalition sniper onboard for embargo take downs. I always find it amusing how the current HSC community conveniently forgets history when some (but certainly not all) like to puff out their chest.
I didn't intend to come off sounding like I was claiming that HSC were the only ones that ever supported SEAL's, or even that we ever really did the mission (other than 84/85, but lets be honest... They don't fly the 60S and aren't just another flavor of HSC squadron. Which, to clarify for the non-rotary guys, is why you keep calling them by their older but more differential title of HCS). I read an after action report where some HSL bubba's did a pretty bad ass real world HVBSS. For most of us "regular" Navy helo bubba's getting an actual SOF mission is going to be about being in the right place at the right time. I was trying to convey to the OP that if he wen't Navy helo's he would have the opportunity to work with NSW and their mission sets in training. Especially so in an HSC squadron where all of the squadrons train in that focus area.
Fins Out
Well-Known Member
Working with NSW can be a good deal as long as you manage your expectations. As far as being directly assigned to a team, you'll most likely be in the billet of a Fires Officer. Most of these billets will fall primarily as your disassociated tour or post department head tour.
You'll either show up as a JTAC or get the qual prior. You'll mainly manage the program (currency, follow on training, etc.) and serve as an air advisor. You might be a great JTAC and great in your airframe, but you won't be out there kicking down doors. Keep in mind, the teams have their own JTACs. You'll get a chance to get out during training but I'd plan on sitting the desk at an ops center during deployment.
The structure of the team is pretty simple: those with tridents, and those without. I don't say that in a negative light, but just understand it's not like the ready room environment you'll be used to. Keep an eye out for opportunities like trips to jump on. There are a lot of schools out there but very few you "need". This becomes a factor if money gets tight, so if you see something you like, have a plan and offer to go no-cost. Plan on doing a lot of things that aren't necessarily part of your job description. You'll be a magnet for coffee mess, JAGMAN investigations, and other random things. Make the best of the situation, do the jobs well, and above all, don't complain. Your reputation begins the moment you set foot in the door. Get branded as a whining pussy and you're done.
If you're interested, crush your fleet tour and leave with good enough paper to give you the opportunity to detour off the traditional career track, then talk to your detailer.
I guess this falls under the category of "to thine own self be true": Does/do RC squadrons, apparently commanded by airline pilots, REALLY constitute "dedicated SOF support"?
I'm not saying the current system is flawed, or out of whack, with everything that SOCCOM/JSOC has to offer to the mix, but what does "dedicated and on-call" mean?
I get that being in a unit that has a higher chance of getting to do the mission or real is appealing. But don't let that drive your self worth as an aviator. Be the best at YOUR mission, if you can do exactly what you claim you can do, exactly when you claim you can do it, there isn't a whole lot of difference between you and them. The 160th gets a shit ton of money to train a lot, but they still put their pants on one leg at a time. At the end of the day, no matter how good we are, we're still just helicopter pilots, we're not kicking down doors on a routine basis even if we do have the harrowing mission now and then.
With all due respect, I think you're out of your lane on this one. You didn't know what HSC-84/85 were before this thread, so how can you judge whether they REALLY constitute "dedicated SOF support" or not? The fact is they are currently forward deployed attached directly to the teams as they have been for years, and their accomplishments and capabilities aren't well known. And that's precisely how they like it. Sure they aren't the 160th, but what other "dedicated SOF support" unit are you judging your new found knowledge of them on?